4 ms·

Looking forward to being downvoted into oblivion: Who cares? What practical real-world implications does this have?

by mherrmann 8y ago

sam0x17 8y ago
From the sticking-it-to-microsoft-now-that-they-want-to-play-nice-with-the-open-source-community department
- jf0 8y ago
  Seems a bit like pedantic nitpicking. I’m pretty sure the developer community is happy with vs code as it is, FOSS advocates don’t own the word ‘free’.
  - sam0x17 8y ago
    There are enough people who remember the "linux is a cancer" days to be a huge stickler about this and make it a real headache for MS. Look at the recent GVFS name change for an identical situation.
djsumdog 8y ago
Does the binary version of VS code send telemetry by default? I mean, that's an implication. This goes back to the older GNU GPL vs BSD/MIT/Apache and how each group will call the other group permissive/restrictive. The spirit of free software from the 90s/00s, specifically that of the FSF/Linux communities, isn't really reflected anymore today. Today most open source projects are commercially supported. I wrote a longer article detailing this a while back: https://penguindreams.org/blog/the-philosophy-of-open-source-in-community-and-enterprise-software/ https://penguindreams.org/blog/the-philosophy-of-open-source...
- throw12112away 8y ago
  > Does the binary version of VS code send telemetry by default? I mean, that's an implication. Does it matter? There are binary versions of open source and Free Software programs that send telemetry as well. Open source only means that the source is available. Free Software only means that that the source must be provided to the user if you distribute a binary of the program. THAT'S IT. There are no other guarantees of privacy or freedoms from telemetry and data gathering. That's not what the licenses are about. People need to stop assuming that the licenses say something more than what they state.
lagadu 8y ago
Only the "grrr Micro$oft" people care. They're effectively using the same model that Google uses for Chrome/Chromium or Android/AOSP.
_bxg1 8y ago
I think the real problem is that Microsoft worked so hard to obscure the relationship between the two via the branding and naming. It feels slimy and damages trust. I'm a career JavaScript developer and I didn't know there was a separate, "truly open source" version. For comparison, look at Chrome vs Chromium. Similar project structure, but the branding and project communication are much better. Everybody (who would care) is readily aware of both versions and the difference between the two, and the fact that Chrome isn't fully open-source.
- ocdtrekkie 8y ago
  Arguably, there is no actual difference in code. Configuration of the package file is the only thing they change. I'm guessing the primary motivation for the license change is that the business people want to keep a strong hold specifically on the Visual Studio trademarks. Which to me, just says they would've been better off giving VSCode a different name.
  - _bxg1 8y ago
    How do you know the only thing they change is the configuration? Unless you're internal to Microsoft, there's not really a way to know. Obscured telemetry has been a running problem with Microsoft in recent years, so it's understandable that people would be suspicious of hidden changes to an application advertised as open-source.
    - ocdtrekkie 8y ago
      I mean, decompiling the app is likely not hard. ILSpy is a thing, and you can even compare against a decompiled open source version. FUD about "obscured telemetry" isn't worth much here either: They specifically have a telemetry URL in the configuration file, and they not only specify that they set it in the thread, but they instruct you on how you can verify the configuration's contents on the proprietary version. Telemetry exists in VSCode, but the code is open source, and you can inspect it to your heart's content. Here: Here's how it works. When you build from the vscode repository, you can configure the resulting tool by customizing the product.json file. This file controls things like the Gallery endpoints, “Send-a-Smile” endpoints, telemetry endpoints, logos, names, and more. When we build Visual Studio Code, we do exactly this. We clone the vscode repository, we lay down a customized product.json that has Microsoft specific functionality (telemetry, gallery, logo, etc.), and then produce a build that we release under our license. And: You can look at the product.json that is installed with the Visual Studio Code product to see what we configure. Willing to bet if the product.json is easily visible in the compiled version, you can even adjust it to work like the open source version if you'd like, by removing the telemetry URL.

Looking forward to being downvoted into oblivion: Who cares? What practical real-world implications does this have?

sam0x17 8y ago

From the sticking-it-to-microsoft-now-that-they-want-to-play-nice-with-the-open-source-community department

jf0 8y ago
Seems a bit like pedantic nitpicking. I’m pretty sure the developer community is happy with vs code as it is, FOSS advocates don’t own the word ‘free’.
- sam0x17 8y ago
  There are enough people who remember the "linux is a cancer" days to be a huge stickler about this and make it a real headache for MS. Look at the recent GVFS name change for an identical situation.

djsumdog 8y ago

Does the binary version of VS code send telemetry by default? I mean, that's an implication. This goes back to the older GNU GPL vs BSD/MIT/Apache and how each group will call the other group permissive/restrictive. The spirit of free software from the 90s/00s, specifically that of the FSF/Linux communities, isn't really reflected anymore today. Today most open source projects are commercially supported. I wrote a longer article detailing this a while back: https://penguindreams.org/blog/the-philosophy-of-open-source-in-community-and-enterprise-software/ https://penguindreams.org/blog/the-philosophy-of-open-source...

throw12112away 8y ago
> Does the binary version of VS code send telemetry by default? I mean, that's an implication. Does it matter? There are binary versions of open source and Free Software programs that send telemetry as well. Open source only means that the source is available. Free Software only means that that the source must be provided to the user if you distribute a binary of the program. THAT'S IT. There are no other guarantees of privacy or freedoms from telemetry and data gathering. That's not what the licenses are about. People need to stop assuming that the licenses say something more than what they state.

lagadu 8y ago

Only the "grrr Micro$oft" people care. They're effectively using the same model that Google uses for Chrome/Chromium or Android/AOSP.

_bxg1 8y ago

I think the real problem is that Microsoft worked so hard to obscure the relationship between the two via the branding and naming. It feels slimy and damages trust. I'm a career JavaScript developer and I didn't know there was a separate, "truly open source" version. For comparison, look at Chrome vs Chromium. Similar project structure, but the branding and project communication are much better. Everybody (who would care) is readily aware of both versions and the difference between the two, and the fact that Chrome isn't fully open-source.

ocdtrekkie 8y ago
Arguably, there is no actual difference in code. Configuration of the package file is the only thing they change. I'm guessing the primary motivation for the license change is that the business people want to keep a strong hold specifically on the Visual Studio trademarks. Which to me, just says they would've been better off giving VSCode a different name.
- _bxg1 8y ago
  How do you know the only thing they change is the configuration? Unless you're internal to Microsoft, there's not really a way to know. Obscured telemetry has been a running problem with Microsoft in recent years, so it's understandable that people would be suspicious of hidden changes to an application advertised as open-source.
  - ocdtrekkie 8y ago
    I mean, decompiling the app is likely not hard. ILSpy is a thing, and you can even compare against a decompiled open source version. FUD about "obscured telemetry" isn't worth much here either: They specifically have a telemetry URL in the configuration file, and they not only specify that they set it in the thread, but they instruct you on how you can verify the configuration's contents on the proprietary version. Telemetry exists in VSCode, but the code is open source, and you can inspect it to your heart's content. Here: Here's how it works. When you build from the vscode repository, you can configure the resulting tool by customizing the product.json file. This file controls things like the Gallery endpoints, “Send-a-Smile” endpoints, telemetry endpoints, logos, names, and more. When we build Visual Studio Code, we do exactly this. We clone the vscode repository, we lay down a customized product.json that has Microsoft specific functionality (telemetry, gallery, logo, etc.), and then produce a build that we release under our license. And: You can look at the product.json that is installed with the Visual Studio Code product to see what we configure. Willing to bet if the product.json is easily visible in the compiled version, you can even adjust it to work like the open source version if you'd like, by removing the telemetry URL.