4 ms·

It will bring jobs back if there are enough people who can afford the local made product. And I wouldn't be sure about it, since in the last few years we have w

It will bring jobs back if there are enough people who can afford the local made product. And I wouldn't be sure about it, since in the last few years we have witnessed a thinning of the middle class, and the lower parts of the population might not afford to pay a premium because it's locally made. It's hard to go back from a race to the bottom

tomp 8y ago
> if there are enough people who can afford the local made product Eventually, it will keep more money in the country, meaning people will also be able to afford more (after all, they'll be being paid the higher, local wages now). Compare with e.g. Switzerland, where most people have really high salary (by EU standards), and pretty much everything is really expensive, but because of the high salaries people can afford it.
- samastur 8y ago
  This works only as long as people having these high salaries do work with high added value and you are not relying much on international trade. Otherwise they can be effectively undercut by people who can do the same thing cheaper.
  - tomp 8y ago
    hence tariffs.
    - throwawayjava 8y ago
      The argument that Switzerland provides a model for high tariffs creating wealth is... especially ironic. Switzerland is one of the least tariff-encumbered economies in the world, reguarly topping out various free trade indicies [1]. And in Switzerland's case, that's almost certainly causual. Average salaries in Switzerland are so high because of the disproprtionate role Switzerland plays in EU and global banking -- a role that wouldn't be possible if Switzerland didn't embrace free trade. So, if we're going to follow Switzerland's lead, we would roll back tariffs. Switzerland is more akin to the EU's version of Massachusetts or New York, and Zurich is the EU's version of Manhattan or SF. It's the sort of economic zone that will always exist in a large economy like the US or the EU. The population is disproportionately made up of citizens from one or two cities/metro areas, and those cities have a high concentration of highly educated and highly paid individuals typically focused on one of a few industries. Consequently, even those employed outside of these high-paying industries make more than average compared to the rest of the country/bloc. Situating ourselves similarly to Switzerland requires placing the US very high in the global value chain while maintaining a global order of very low trade barriers. Which has always been the neoliberal agenda, at least ostisibly. In other words, if we want to emulate Switzerland, we have to do exactly the opposite of the Trump plan -- continue offshoring anything lower in the value chain, continue insisting on low trade barriers, continue dominating everything higher in the value chain. Obviously, even if this strategy works for the country in aggregate, it's going ot have definite losers in a country as large as the US. On a (very!) related note, the US and Switzerland currently have basically the same PPP. [1] https://www.heritage.org/index/country/switzerland https://www.heritage.org/index/country/switzerland
      - jonatron 8y ago
        You didn't explicitly say it was, but you didn't make it clear that Switzerland isn't in the EU.
        arcticbull 8y ago
        It depends on what you mean by "EU" - I do understand that EU member state has a specific definition that Switzerland does not meet. What most people think of as "EU" is actually an overlapping patchwork of agreements many of which Switzerland does participate in. True, they're not part of the Euro zone. They're part of the Schengen area (common immigration zone), the EFTA (free trade area), signed the EEA, and adopted by themselves most EU regulations. [1] While not an ECJ member, they are softening their stance on that also [2]. [1] https://theconversation.com/what-is-the-swiss-model-of-co-operation-with-the-european-union-58817 https://theconversation.com/what-is-the-swiss-model-of-co-op... [2] https://www.ft.com/content/17d840b6-209b-11e8-a895-1ba1f72c2c11 https://www.ft.com/content/17d840b6-209b-11e8-a895-1ba1f72c2...
        workinthehead 8y ago
        I would really like to see a source for your claim that "most people" think of the "EU" as something other than the European Union. Seriously, what's with all the weasel words? Switzerland is not an EU member. End of.
        arcticbull 8y ago
        What does EU mean to you? Does it mean you can move freely from country to country? (You can, it's Schengen) How about goods? (They can, they're in the single market) How about animals? Pets? (Switzerland accepts EU pet passports) How about laws? Switzerland has many of the same EU laws. How about judiciary? They're moving to accept the ECJ. At what point does it matter if they're EU or not if all the other rules apply? If you didn't know, you'd probably wander around Switzerland thinking it was EU. That's my point. I'm not claiming they're a member state. I specifically said that, in the first line. What I am saying is that they're hardly independent of the EU, and that makes a big difference.
    - samastur 8y ago
      Hence relying much on international trade part. Tariffs can influence only internal prices. Your exports, more costly because of wages, will still need to prove their value. In practice your tariffs will also reduce your exports since you can generally expect reciprocal tariffs from your trading partners amply demonstrated right now.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- s73v3r_ 8y ago
  That only works out if those higher salaries get paid to the people who need them, and that the majority of those profits don't get sucked up by those at the top. Given the last 30 years or so, I really do not believe that those at the bottom will have any benefit. They'll still get the same crappy wages, and now everything is more expensive for them.

tomp 8y ago

> if there are enough people who can afford the local made product Eventually, it will keep more money in the country, meaning people will also be able to afford more (after all, they'll be being paid the higher, local wages now). Compare with e.g. Switzerland, where most people have really high salary (by EU standards), and pretty much everything is really expensive, but because of the high salaries people can afford it.

samastur 8y ago
This works only as long as people having these high salaries do work with high added value and you are not relying much on international trade. Otherwise they can be effectively undercut by people who can do the same thing cheaper.
- tomp 8y ago
  hence tariffs.
  - throwawayjava 8y ago
    The argument that Switzerland provides a model for high tariffs creating wealth is... especially ironic. Switzerland is one of the least tariff-encumbered economies in the world, reguarly topping out various free trade indicies [1]. And in Switzerland's case, that's almost certainly causual. Average salaries in Switzerland are so high because of the disproprtionate role Switzerland plays in EU and global banking -- a role that wouldn't be possible if Switzerland didn't embrace free trade. So, if we're going to follow Switzerland's lead, we would roll back tariffs. Switzerland is more akin to the EU's version of Massachusetts or New York, and Zurich is the EU's version of Manhattan or SF. It's the sort of economic zone that will always exist in a large economy like the US or the EU. The population is disproportionately made up of citizens from one or two cities/metro areas, and those cities have a high concentration of highly educated and highly paid individuals typically focused on one of a few industries. Consequently, even those employed outside of these high-paying industries make more than average compared to the rest of the country/bloc. Situating ourselves similarly to Switzerland requires placing the US very high in the global value chain while maintaining a global order of very low trade barriers. Which has always been the neoliberal agenda, at least ostisibly. In other words, if we want to emulate Switzerland, we have to do exactly the opposite of the Trump plan -- continue offshoring anything lower in the value chain, continue insisting on low trade barriers, continue dominating everything higher in the value chain. Obviously, even if this strategy works for the country in aggregate, it's going ot have definite losers in a country as large as the US. On a (very!) related note, the US and Switzerland currently have basically the same PPP. [1] https://www.heritage.org/index/country/switzerland https://www.heritage.org/index/country/switzerland
    - jonatron 8y ago
      You didn't explicitly say it was, but you didn't make it clear that Switzerland isn't in the EU.
      - arcticbull 8y ago
        It depends on what you mean by "EU" - I do understand that EU member state has a specific definition that Switzerland does not meet. What most people think of as "EU" is actually an overlapping patchwork of agreements many of which Switzerland does participate in. True, they're not part of the Euro zone. They're part of the Schengen area (common immigration zone), the EFTA (free trade area), signed the EEA, and adopted by themselves most EU regulations. [1] While not an ECJ member, they are softening their stance on that also [2]. [1] https://theconversation.com/what-is-the-swiss-model-of-co-operation-with-the-european-union-58817 https://theconversation.com/what-is-the-swiss-model-of-co-op... [2] https://www.ft.com/content/17d840b6-209b-11e8-a895-1ba1f72c2c11 https://www.ft.com/content/17d840b6-209b-11e8-a895-1ba1f72c2...
        workinthehead 8y ago
        I would really like to see a source for your claim that "most people" think of the "EU" as something other than the European Union. Seriously, what's with all the weasel words? Switzerland is not an EU member. End of.
        arcticbull 8y ago
        What does EU mean to you? Does it mean you can move freely from country to country? (You can, it's Schengen) How about goods? (They can, they're in the single market) How about animals? Pets? (Switzerland accepts EU pet passports) How about laws? Switzerland has many of the same EU laws. How about judiciary? They're moving to accept the ECJ. At what point does it matter if they're EU or not if all the other rules apply? If you didn't know, you'd probably wander around Switzerland thinking it was EU. That's my point. I'm not claiming they're a member state. I specifically said that, in the first line. What I am saying is that they're hardly independent of the EU, and that makes a big difference.
  - samastur 8y ago
    Hence relying much on international trade part. Tariffs can influence only internal prices. Your exports, more costly because of wages, will still need to prove their value. In practice your tariffs will also reduce your exports since you can generally expect reciprocal tariffs from your trading partners amply demonstrated right now.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
s73v3r_ 8y ago
That only works out if those higher salaries get paid to the people who need them, and that the majority of those profits don't get sucked up by those at the top. Given the last 30 years or so, I really do not believe that those at the bottom will have any benefit. They'll still get the same crappy wages, and now everything is more expensive for them.