5 ms·

From the second part: https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1600/1EXYbO_qnV2m8fv4mBuBH-g.png https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1600/1EXYbO_qnV2m8fv4mB... >

From the second part: https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1600/1*EXYbO_qnV2m8fv4mBuBH-g.png https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1600/1*EXYbO_qnV2m8fv4mB... > Adjusting the volume in KDE Plasma — why is there more than one slider for playback? Hardly intuitive Because there are multiple outputs and you can assign a source to whichever outputs you want. Why shouldn't the controls reflect the actual capabilities of the device? The next step is saying that the device is too capable and needs capabilities removed to make it easier to understand. No thank you.

flukus 8y ago
You're a technical user, the blogger was speaking of non-technical users who's mental map of the machine don't accommodate multiple volumes. They also have no idea what "audio adapted analogue stereo" or "HDMI / display port" means. Even as a technical user the amount of volume controls can get quite ridiculous. There is the device volume, the app volume (games, media players), the context volume (typically on phones), a volume control on the output device (speakers or display), volume controls on the output devices of output devices (TV -> stereo setup), volume controls on the input devices (Bluetooth, keyboard controls). It really is amazing that we have so many places to control such a seemingly simple so I can't really blame non-technical people for getting confused. I'd love to have just one analogue knob on my keyboard to control everything and never think about volume again.
- beojan 8y ago
  > You're a technical user, the blogger was speaking of non-technical users who's mental map of the machine don't accommodate multiple volumes. They also have no idea what "audio adapted analogue stereo" or "HDMI / display port" means. Really, they can't understand that the speaker has a different volume to their headphones? At least this is better than having multiple volume knobs on one audio path.
- wruza 8y ago
  Non-technical users, who don’t know what HDMI and headphones are, probably have no computer at all, not to mention a specific linux distribution. And all these attempts to make an OS for an average complete idiot (that nowhere exists) just make things worse every year. Thank god few sanity bastions like xfce are still alive. Btw, iphones have context-dependent volume control, probably because combining ring and music volume is impractical. The same for speaker vs headphones. But now I never know if I turned volume down for “volume”, “headphones”, “ring” or whatever it shows on that vague screen. This is a complex issue, and when you hide it behind too clever logic it can get even worse than explaining. Btw2, in my childhood we had no computers or experience, but no one failed to manage volumes on chained-together audio systems. A good subject to think of.
  - flukus 8y ago
    > And all these attempts to make an OS for an average complete idiot (that nowhere exists) just make things worse every year. Thank god few sanity bastions like xfce are still alive. I agree, but to many try to ride that middle ground, KDE is probably the best example. It aims to be simple but so much is configurable via hidden context menus and drag and drop controls that users can completely rearrange their desktop accidentally, even when it's locked. I don't know how but they do. If they'd just hide everything in text config files it would be better for both groups. > Btw2, in my childhood we had no computers or experience, but no one failed to manage volumes on chained-together audio systems. A good subject to think of. My family were constantly getting confused by things like the volume button on the VCR remote and the surround sound home theatre craze was a nightmare (and notice how so few people bother with this complication any more?). Other things like only changing the channel on the TV while recording something on the VCR and why the have to press AV2 when they used to just put it on channel 5 needed constant reminders. Their way of looking at the world just never understood input/output pipelines, at best they had to learn what to do by rote. > Non-technical users, who don’t know what HDMI and headphones are, probably have no computer at all I think you're hugely underestimating the people that still need them for work and creative tasks that tablets/phones will always suck at. They still act as the universal hub for all devices so people can do things like print documents or upload pictures from their digital camera to facebook. Not to mention the better ergonomics of something like a screen you can tilt but don't have to hold constantly.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
The point wasn't that such functionality shouldn't be offered, but that a single global volume bar is almost certainly what you want most of the time. It should show a single volume slider that covers the master volume for all output devices and allow tweaking beyond that from another menu. This is the behavior of the Windows 10 mixer, for instance. >The next step is saying that the device is too capable and needs capabilities removed to make it easier to understand. No thank you. Sadly, yes, this is how Linux Desktop people think. GNOME especially.
- zzzcpan 8y ago
  > but that a single global volume bar is almost certainly what you want most of the time Only true if volume is perfectly normalized. Otherwise you want to be able to quickly control volume per application or some context without affecting other applications, so when you switch to them you don't have to do it again. Browsers are examples of how bad it can be, with overly loud unnormalized instagram videos and no volume controls and in contrast somewhat normalized youtube volume with controls.
  - randomsearch 8y ago
    I don’t recall anyone ever saying to me they were worried about volume normalisation. Don’t design for edge cases that app developers can tackle.

From the second part: https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1600/1*EXYbO_qnV2m8fv4mBuBH-g.png https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1600/1*EXYbO_qnV2m8fv4mB... >

flukus 8y ago

You're a technical user, the blogger was speaking of non-technical users who's mental map of the machine don't accommodate multiple volumes. They also have no idea what "audio adapted analogue stereo" or "HDMI / display port" means. Even as a technical user the amount of volume controls can get quite ridiculous. There is the device volume, the app volume (games, media players), the context volume (typically on phones), a volume control on the output device (speakers or display), volume controls on the output devices of output devices (TV -> stereo setup), volume controls on the input devices (Bluetooth, keyboard controls). It really is amazing that we have so many places to control such a seemingly simple so I can't really blame non-technical people for getting confused. I'd love to have just one analogue knob on my keyboard to control everything and never think about volume again.

beojan 8y ago
> You're a technical user, the blogger was speaking of non-technical users who's mental map of the machine don't accommodate multiple volumes. They also have no idea what "audio adapted analogue stereo" or "HDMI / display port" means. Really, they can't understand that the speaker has a different volume to their headphones? At least this is better than having multiple volume knobs on one audio path.
wruza 8y ago
Non-technical users, who don’t know what HDMI and headphones are, probably have no computer at all, not to mention a specific linux distribution. And all these attempts to make an OS for an average complete idiot (that nowhere exists) just make things worse every year. Thank god few sanity bastions like xfce are still alive. Btw, iphones have context-dependent volume control, probably because combining ring and music volume is impractical. The same for speaker vs headphones. But now I never know if I turned volume down for “volume”, “headphones”, “ring” or whatever it shows on that vague screen. This is a complex issue, and when you hide it behind too clever logic it can get even worse than explaining. Btw2, in my childhood we had no computers or experience, but no one failed to manage volumes on chained-together audio systems. A good subject to think of.
- flukus 8y ago
  > And all these attempts to make an OS for an average complete idiot (that nowhere exists) just make things worse every year. Thank god few sanity bastions like xfce are still alive. I agree, but to many try to ride that middle ground, KDE is probably the best example. It aims to be simple but so much is configurable via hidden context menus and drag and drop controls that users can completely rearrange their desktop accidentally, even when it's locked. I don't know how but they do. If they'd just hide everything in text config files it would be better for both groups. > Btw2, in my childhood we had no computers or experience, but no one failed to manage volumes on chained-together audio systems. A good subject to think of. My family were constantly getting confused by things like the volume button on the VCR remote and the surround sound home theatre craze was a nightmare (and notice how so few people bother with this complication any more?). Other things like only changing the channel on the TV while recording something on the VCR and why the have to press AV2 when they used to just put it on channel 5 needed constant reminders. Their way of looking at the world just never understood input/output pipelines, at best they had to learn what to do by rote. > Non-technical users, who don’t know what HDMI and headphones are, probably have no computer at all I think you're hugely underestimating the people that still need them for work and creative tasks that tablets/phones will always suck at. They still act as the universal hub for all devices so people can do things like print documents or upload pictures from their digital camera to facebook. Not to mention the better ergonomics of something like a screen you can tilt but don't have to hold constantly.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago

The point wasn't that such functionality shouldn't be offered, but that a single global volume bar is almost certainly what you want most of the time. It should show a single volume slider that covers the master volume for all output devices and allow tweaking beyond that from another menu. This is the behavior of the Windows 10 mixer, for instance. >The next step is saying that the device is too capable and needs capabilities removed to make it easier to understand. No thank you. Sadly, yes, this is how Linux Desktop people think. GNOME especially.

zzzcpan 8y ago
> but that a single global volume bar is almost certainly what you want most of the time Only true if volume is perfectly normalized. Otherwise you want to be able to quickly control volume per application or some context without affecting other applications, so when you switch to them you don't have to do it again. Browsers are examples of how bad it can be, with overly loud unnormalized instagram videos and no volume controls and in contrast somewhat normalized youtube volume with controls.
- randomsearch 8y ago
  I don’t recall anyone ever saying to me they were worried about volume normalisation. Don’t design for edge cases that app developers can tackle.