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Just finished Bad Blood. Hopefully they both get felony prison time, and there is precedence for it. I don't see how it's any different than a pharmacist dilu

Just finished Bad Blood. Hopefully they both get felony prison time, and there is precedence for it. I don't see how it's any different than a pharmacist diluting drugs. After diluting blood samples, they purposely doctored the statistics to reduce the deviation.

tedmiston 8y ago
Do you know of any good summaries for it? It's on my someday list but a CliffsNotes version would be awesome.
- kqr2 8y ago
  You could also wait for the movie which will star Jennifer Lawrence: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5795144 https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5795144 https://deadline.com/2018/05/vanessa-taylor-theranos-scandal-bad-blood-adam-mckay-jennifer-lawrence-elizabeth-holmes-1202390697/ https://deadline.com/2018/05/vanessa-taylor-theranos-scandal...
  - perfmode 8y ago
    great. elizabeth holmes is being immortalized by jennifer lawrence. i’m really in two minds about the practice of making films about people of the likes of Holmes.
    - Waterluvian 8y ago
      They just eat up the attention and validation of importance. Yum yum yum yum yum.
  - metabagel 8y ago
    I wonder if Jennifer Lawrence can get her voice as ridiculously deep as Elizabeth Holmes.
    - JackCh 8y ago
      I'm sure they could pitch down her voice in post. Or maybe give her a tank of sulfur hexafluoride...
    - just_one_time_ 8y ago
      The book says the voice was fake. The employee "caught" her using her real voice in private, apparently she was told early on to lower her voice to appear more confident.
- madengr 8y ago
  Sorry, no. There are plenty of excepts though. It's a fast read, and you'll not want to put it down.
- KSS42 8y ago
  Jean-Louis Gassée has a good write up. He tried using the technology and got very odd results. His use of the test in 2015: https://mondaynote.com/theranos-trouble-a-first-person-account-1690b827539f https://mondaynote.com/theranos-trouble-a-first-person-accou... Follow up from May 2018: https://mondaynote.com/theranos-could-have-been-stopped-9670793e3431 https://mondaynote.com/theranos-could-have-been-stopped-9670...
- Jonovono 8y ago
  I liked this interview with the author: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ta1DqI4xDRw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ta1DqI4xDRw
- mifreewil 8y ago
  Youtube John Carreyrou, he's done many 30min+ interviews in the last month that summarizes the story well.
- dyoo1979 8y ago
  The Commonwealth Club of California had a pretty good session from the reporter: https://www.commonwealthclub.org/events/2018-06-07/theranos-fraud-and-deception-silicon-valley https://www.commonwealthclub.org/events/2018-06-07/theranos-...
- wp381640 8y ago
  You shouldn't skip it - it's an excellent book that I believe in the long term will become a Silicon Valley staple similar to what Barbarian at the Gate is for Wall Street It's also a breezy read - I tore through it in a couple of sittings.
chapium 8y ago
Its pretty common for labs to dilute lab samples. I’m not sure this is the same thing.
- madengr 8y ago
  Yeah, but they diluted them knowing the deviations were wild, then purposely tossed outliers to rein it in. It's statistical fraud 101. The premise is that you can't get enough blood (or quality of blood, as in the potassium test) from finger pricks to do the tests they claimed; period. They knew that soon after the start, and perpetrated the fraud for years.
- JackCh 8y ago
  The third-party lab machines Theranos was secretly using will often dilute samples during their general operation. This is a known factor engineered into their design and accounted for in their certification/regulation. Theranos was secretly diluting blood samples even more, well beyond what the machines they were using were originally meant for. What they were doing was legally, ethically, and scientifically completely distinct. Prison time is definitely deserved.
  - chapium 8y ago
    I guess im not fullybinformed on their actions, but of course the 3rd party machines automate the dilution process and in some cases dilution is done manually. Obviously working with the equipment outside of spec is wrong.
    - pkaye 8y ago
      Because Theranos used very small samples of blood, when they got diluted, the error margins on the measurements increased a lot because it was hard to get the ratio of blood to dilution fluid consistent when samples are small.
fmstein 8y ago
I disagree with this sentiment. After reading Bad Blood as well, I must say that nobody at the company deserves much punishment. It's Theranos's investors and Theranos's business partners that are mostly at fault. They didn't do their due diligence and simply assumed (hoped) that the technology worked. They were too concerned about missing out on the "big one", which clouded their judgement. No patients were harmed. The only losers in this are the investors that invested in Theranos. Given that they blindly trusted the pitch, without verifying that the technology worked, that makes them very bad and unskilled investors. Unskilled investors losing a lot of money is, in fact, a very good thing for the Silicon Valley ecosystem. It's how bad influencers are flushed out of the system.
- alonmower 8y ago
  Patients received incorrect blood test results and it's impossible to argue Theranos didn't know that this was a risk of what they were doing. In Bad Blood there were anecdotes of people being sent straight to the hospital because of worrying results. Beyond the psychological harm in the reported false positive cases why are you confident that no patients were harmed in even worse ways (i.e. false negatives, not catching a condition early)?
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - drspacemonkey 8y ago
    There was at least one case of a false negative resulting in a preventable heart attack.
- asdsa5325 8y ago
  Lying to investors is a crime. There is a large difference between making a stupid investment and being lied to about a stupid investment. Did you make an account just to make this dumb comment?
  - favorited 8y ago
icantdrive55 8y ago
What I found troubling is she is only being fined $500,000. That's just too little. I was really hoping the fine would sting. Oh yea, and she can't be a CEO for ten years. Can be anything else though? White privilege? And she had some good lawyers?

tedmiston 8y ago

Do you know of any good summaries for it? It's on my someday list but a CliffsNotes version would be awesome.

kqr2 8y ago
You could also wait for the movie which will star Jennifer Lawrence: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5795144 https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5795144 https://deadline.com/2018/05/vanessa-taylor-theranos-scandal-bad-blood-adam-mckay-jennifer-lawrence-elizabeth-holmes-1202390697/ https://deadline.com/2018/05/vanessa-taylor-theranos-scandal...
- perfmode 8y ago
  great. elizabeth holmes is being immortalized by jennifer lawrence. i’m really in two minds about the practice of making films about people of the likes of Holmes.
  - Waterluvian 8y ago
    They just eat up the attention and validation of importance. Yum yum yum yum yum.
- metabagel 8y ago
  I wonder if Jennifer Lawrence can get her voice as ridiculously deep as Elizabeth Holmes.
  - JackCh 8y ago
    I'm sure they could pitch down her voice in post. Or maybe give her a tank of sulfur hexafluoride...
  - just_one_time_ 8y ago
    The book says the voice was fake. The employee "caught" her using her real voice in private, apparently she was told early on to lower her voice to appear more confident.
madengr 8y ago
Sorry, no. There are plenty of excepts though. It's a fast read, and you'll not want to put it down.
KSS42 8y ago
Jean-Louis Gassée has a good write up. He tried using the technology and got very odd results. His use of the test in 2015: https://mondaynote.com/theranos-trouble-a-first-person-account-1690b827539f https://mondaynote.com/theranos-trouble-a-first-person-accou... Follow up from May 2018: https://mondaynote.com/theranos-could-have-been-stopped-9670793e3431 https://mondaynote.com/theranos-could-have-been-stopped-9670...
Jonovono 8y ago
I liked this interview with the author: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ta1DqI4xDRw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ta1DqI4xDRw
mifreewil 8y ago
Youtube John Carreyrou, he's done many 30min+ interviews in the last month that summarizes the story well.
dyoo1979 8y ago
The Commonwealth Club of California had a pretty good session from the reporter: https://www.commonwealthclub.org/events/2018-06-07/theranos-fraud-and-deception-silicon-valley https://www.commonwealthclub.org/events/2018-06-07/theranos-...
wp381640 8y ago
You shouldn't skip it - it's an excellent book that I believe in the long term will become a Silicon Valley staple similar to what Barbarian at the Gate is for Wall Street It's also a breezy read - I tore through it in a couple of sittings.

chapium 8y ago

Its pretty common for labs to dilute lab samples. I’m not sure this is the same thing.

madengr 8y ago
Yeah, but they diluted them knowing the deviations were wild, then purposely tossed outliers to rein it in. It's statistical fraud 101. The premise is that you can't get enough blood (or quality of blood, as in the potassium test) from finger pricks to do the tests they claimed; period. They knew that soon after the start, and perpetrated the fraud for years.
JackCh 8y ago
The third-party lab machines Theranos was secretly using will often dilute samples during their general operation. This is a known factor engineered into their design and accounted for in their certification/regulation. Theranos was secretly diluting blood samples even more, well beyond what the machines they were using were originally meant for. What they were doing was legally, ethically, and scientifically completely distinct. Prison time is definitely deserved.
- chapium 8y ago
  I guess im not fullybinformed on their actions, but of course the 3rd party machines automate the dilution process and in some cases dilution is done manually. Obviously working with the equipment outside of spec is wrong.
  - pkaye 8y ago
    Because Theranos used very small samples of blood, when they got diluted, the error margins on the measurements increased a lot because it was hard to get the ratio of blood to dilution fluid consistent when samples are small.

fmstein 8y ago

I disagree with this sentiment. After reading Bad Blood as well, I must say that nobody at the company deserves much punishment. It's Theranos's investors and Theranos's business partners that are mostly at fault. They didn't do their due diligence and simply assumed (hoped) that the technology worked. They were too concerned about missing out on the "big one", which clouded their judgement. No patients were harmed. The only losers in this are the investors that invested in Theranos. Given that they blindly trusted the pitch, without verifying that the technology worked, that makes them very bad and unskilled investors. Unskilled investors losing a lot of money is, in fact, a very good thing for the Silicon Valley ecosystem. It's how bad influencers are flushed out of the system.

alonmower 8y ago
Patients received incorrect blood test results and it's impossible to argue Theranos didn't know that this was a risk of what they were doing. In Bad Blood there were anecdotes of people being sent straight to the hospital because of worrying results. Beyond the psychological harm in the reported false positive cases why are you confident that no patients were harmed in even worse ways (i.e. false negatives, not catching a condition early)?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- drspacemonkey 8y ago
  There was at least one case of a false negative resulting in a preventable heart attack.
asdsa5325 8y ago
Lying to investors is a crime. There is a large difference between making a stupid investment and being lied to about a stupid investment. Did you make an account just to make this dumb comment?
- favorited 8y ago

icantdrive55 8y ago

What I found troubling is she is only being fined $500,000. That's just too little. I was really hoping the fine would sting. Oh yea, and she can't be a CEO for ten years. Can be anything else though? White privilege? And she had some good lawyers?