4 ms·

That's some fucked-up mental gymnastics of an excuse to explain the existence of the app-store. It's like having your refrigerator manufacturer enforce purchasi

That's some fucked-up mental gymnastics of an excuse to explain the existence of the app-store. It's like having your refrigerator manufacturer enforce purchasing of groceries that he's vetted to save you from a salmonella infection, where the manufacturer keeps 30% of the grocery revenues, and arbitrarily controls what groceries can be purchased in the first place Outside of apple, software is bought and sold in a secure manner without forking 30% to Apple, or having Apple mark you as a threat and toy-fuck you out of business [1]. [1]: https://www.macrumors.com/2018/05/24/apple-rejects-valve-steam-link-app/ https://www.macrumors.com/2018/05/24/apple-rejects-valve-ste...

s73v3r_ 8y ago
And you do have the ability to purchase phones which use those other channels.
- mankash666 8y ago
  Doesn't have ANY bearing on the fact that Apple is anti-competitive. No excuse for one company to break the just because others follow the law
  - s73v3r_ 8y ago
    But the point is that Apple is not breaking the law. This is not an anti-competitive move by them.
    - mankash666 8y ago
      And by what legal authority did you just state that? Microsoft was forced to ship competitive browsers in the OS to avoid monopoly claims, but Apple - unlike Microsft, they won't even allow 'un-blessed' apps to RUN on the phone. Seems patently illegal
      - rayiner 8y ago
        Microsoft had a monopoly on the desktop PC OS. Apple has no monopoly on any product category. (Defining "iOS" as a "market" and saying Apple has a monopoly over that is absurd; it would turn every platform into a monopoly. By that reasoning, Facebook has a monopoly on Facebook.)
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - s73v3r_ 8y ago
        The same legal authority you've used to make your argument. And Microsoft's situation was quite different from this one. For one, they had an overwhelming monopoly in desktop operating systems (something like 95% marketshare), and they had several times been caught intentionally breaking competitors' offerings.
      - Jtsummers 8y ago
        Microsoft did a lot of shit to warrant their anti-trust suit. The browser thing was one bit. How about how they spent $1 billion to market IE (a free product) in order to cut into a potential (though indirect) competitor's product (Netscape). Netscape's browser was reaching the point (as early as this was in the WWW days) of being a potential host for cross-platform software applications. This terrified MS as it would eliminate a lot of their foothold in the business market, in particular. How about how when Compaq and others wanted to sell non-Windows OSes, Microsoft threatened them with increased Windows licensing fees. They had access to OEM rates which meant they could participate in the cut-throat and very low margin PC business. Without those rates, they would have to raise their prices. Even an extra $100-200 would price them above their competitors. This was done to eliminate the OS competition (or constrain it). What has Apple done that is equivalent to these actions? And how has Apple's (minority) marketshare enabled them to do these things?
        mankash666 8y ago
        All you've started here is that you dislike Microsoft. There's zero moral difference in Apple's actions on the app store and Microsoft from yesteryears
  - urda 8y ago
    It's not breaking the law though. Don't like it? Don't buy an iPhone then. Nobody is holding a gun to your head to use iOS or the App Store. End of story. There's a number of handsets for you to choose from that aren't Apple's.
    - mankash666 8y ago
      Huh? "Here's item A that breaks the law - if you don't like it, don't buy it". That's the crux of your tirade. Apple's legal non-compliance cannot be justified by the existence of Android. Hence the lawsuit
      - urda 8y ago
        It's not a crux at all it's the facts, Apple isn't breaking the law. Whatever gymnastics you need to do to not think that is on your own. The Supreme court is being pulled in due to a split opinion, but one federal court has already ruled it legal. That's not breaking the law. Also "if you don't like it, don't buy it" is literally how the market works. If you don't agree with the software decisions by Apple, you can happily flock elsewhere.
        mankash666 8y ago
        Regardless of your cherry-picking judgements that support your narrative, the fact that this in the supreme Court, and the fact that we're debating it on HN point to an uncertainty in legality. The structure of the free market doesn't insulate monopolies or illegal items from being traded under the guise of choice. So don't keep pining on the existence of Android. If you've lived under a rock, Apple banning an app from the app store can often be the death knell for the publisher, especially small ones. Stop pretending Apple isn't anti competitive on the app store
  - tomatotomato37 8y ago
    You're voluntarily purchasing a product from Apple and then complaining the product does something that's not only non-secretive, but actually used as a marketing point by Apple, the same company you bought said device from. You then mandate that this is, or at least should be, against the law. This is all in the context of a marketplace in which Apple has a non-monopoly position in. Dude.
  - scarface74 8y ago
    So if Apple is “anticompetitive” should Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft be forced to open up thier console app stores?
- qalmakka 8y ago
  But then you lose access to any Apple technology you may rely on, such as iMessage. In the EU this is irrelevant given that nobody gives a damn about it, but in the USA it is one of the biggest messaging platforms, and not having an iPhone makes every group chat you are onto into a "green bubble chat" where everything is conveyed to everyone using crappy MMS instead of iMessage. This user experience degradation has led to multiple instances of "I would buy an android phone, but everyone around me uses iMessage". Thus, Apple being a monopolist IS an issue, given that they actively design their software to be less interoperable with the rest of the world as possible to lock you in into their ecosystem.

s73v3r_ 8y ago

And you do have the ability to purchase phones which use those other channels.

mankash666 8y ago
Doesn't have ANY bearing on the fact that Apple is anti-competitive. No excuse for one company to break the just because others follow the law
- s73v3r_ 8y ago
  But the point is that Apple is not breaking the law. This is not an anti-competitive move by them.
  - mankash666 8y ago
    And by what legal authority did you just state that? Microsoft was forced to ship competitive browsers in the OS to avoid monopoly claims, but Apple - unlike Microsft, they won't even allow 'un-blessed' apps to RUN on the phone. Seems patently illegal
    - rayiner 8y ago
      Microsoft had a monopoly on the desktop PC OS. Apple has no monopoly on any product category. (Defining "iOS" as a "market" and saying Apple has a monopoly over that is absurd; it would turn every platform into a monopoly. By that reasoning, Facebook has a monopoly on Facebook.)
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - s73v3r_ 8y ago
      The same legal authority you've used to make your argument. And Microsoft's situation was quite different from this one. For one, they had an overwhelming monopoly in desktop operating systems (something like 95% marketshare), and they had several times been caught intentionally breaking competitors' offerings.
    - Jtsummers 8y ago
      Microsoft did a lot of shit to warrant their anti-trust suit. The browser thing was one bit. How about how they spent $1 billion to market IE (a free product) in order to cut into a potential (though indirect) competitor's product (Netscape). Netscape's browser was reaching the point (as early as this was in the WWW days) of being a potential host for cross-platform software applications. This terrified MS as it would eliminate a lot of their foothold in the business market, in particular. How about how when Compaq and others wanted to sell non-Windows OSes, Microsoft threatened them with increased Windows licensing fees. They had access to OEM rates which meant they could participate in the cut-throat and very low margin PC business. Without those rates, they would have to raise their prices. Even an extra $100-200 would price them above their competitors. This was done to eliminate the OS competition (or constrain it). What has Apple done that is equivalent to these actions? And how has Apple's (minority) marketshare enabled them to do these things?
      - mankash666 8y ago
        All you've started here is that you dislike Microsoft. There's zero moral difference in Apple's actions on the app store and Microsoft from yesteryears
- urda 8y ago
  It's not breaking the law though. Don't like it? Don't buy an iPhone then. Nobody is holding a gun to your head to use iOS or the App Store. End of story. There's a number of handsets for you to choose from that aren't Apple's.
  - mankash666 8y ago
    Huh? "Here's item A that breaks the law - if you don't like it, don't buy it". That's the crux of your tirade. Apple's legal non-compliance cannot be justified by the existence of Android. Hence the lawsuit
    - urda 8y ago
      It's not a crux at all it's the facts, Apple isn't breaking the law. Whatever gymnastics you need to do to not think that is on your own. The Supreme court is being pulled in due to a split opinion, but one federal court has already ruled it legal. That's not breaking the law. Also "if you don't like it, don't buy it" is literally how the market works. If you don't agree with the software decisions by Apple, you can happily flock elsewhere.
      - mankash666 8y ago
        Regardless of your cherry-picking judgements that support your narrative, the fact that this in the supreme Court, and the fact that we're debating it on HN point to an uncertainty in legality. The structure of the free market doesn't insulate monopolies or illegal items from being traded under the guise of choice. So don't keep pining on the existence of Android. If you've lived under a rock, Apple banning an app from the app store can often be the death knell for the publisher, especially small ones. Stop pretending Apple isn't anti competitive on the app store
- tomatotomato37 8y ago
  You're voluntarily purchasing a product from Apple and then complaining the product does something that's not only non-secretive, but actually used as a marketing point by Apple, the same company you bought said device from. You then mandate that this is, or at least should be, against the law. This is all in the context of a marketplace in which Apple has a non-monopoly position in. Dude.
- scarface74 8y ago
  So if Apple is “anticompetitive” should Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft be forced to open up thier console app stores?
qalmakka 8y ago
But then you lose access to any Apple technology you may rely on, such as iMessage. In the EU this is irrelevant given that nobody gives a damn about it, but in the USA it is one of the biggest messaging platforms, and not having an iPhone makes every group chat you are onto into a "green bubble chat" where everything is conveyed to everyone using crappy MMS instead of iMessage. This user experience degradation has led to multiple instances of "I would buy an android phone, but everyone around me uses iMessage". Thus, Apple being a monopolist IS an issue, given that they actively design their software to be less interoperable with the rest of the world as possible to lock you in into their ecosystem.