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Square is a payment processor and all payment processors are presented with an opportunity to use existing blockchains as the rails for a cheaper money transmis

Square is a payment processor and all payment processors are presented with an opportunity to use existing blockchains as the rails for a cheaper money transmission system. Blockchain networks have the capability to be cheaper than the offerings of the SWIFT system, ACH and VISA networks, for the payment processor. Given the state of the technology today, taking advantage of these cost savings in the most network-aligned way requires massive liquidity. Square creating a liquidity solution helps them and grants their customers something they want.

glitchc 8y ago
I'm not buying the cheaper argument. Which part of transacting on the Bitcoin network is cheaper exactly? Mining is cost-intensive, and transaction fees are at least an order of magnitude higher than Visa. Equating SWIFT to Visa is also disingenuous as the former is meant for cross border settlements where the restrictions are regulatory (AML), not technology. Switching to Bitcoin doesn't mean Square or any other institution can simply ignore AML laws. I see this mainly as a service they wish to provide to a segment of their customer. I also expect it to be a loss leader and shut down over time.
- dick_sucker2 8y ago
  No chargebacks?
  - glitchc 8y ago
    Is that meant as a positive or a negative, as chargebacks help the consumer, as does non-repudiation. The general public wants these features in our exchange mediums.
    - dick_sucker2 8y ago
      It forces arbitration with the business in the case of a dispute. Wouldn't payment processors and businesses want that?
      - s73v3r_ 8y ago
        Consumers don't want that.
        DINKDINK 8y ago
        You can build a system that allows charge backs on a system that doesn't allow charge backs but you cannot build a system without charge backs on a system that does allow charge backs. These escrow products already exist for customers on Bitcoin.
  - paulie_a 8y ago
    That's not a feature it is a drawback.
    - craigc 8y ago
      It is actually a feature. From the original Bitcoin whitepaper: > Transactions that are computationally impractical to reverse would protect sellers from fraud. https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
      - paulie_a 8y ago
        As a buyer I wouldn't use it then.
        craigc 8y ago
        Mmm. I am not sure if Square actually lets you transact using Bitcoin or if this is just about purchasing and selling it to hold it as an investment. I haven’t actually tested it out.
- jes5199 8y ago
  maybe they'll get on the Bitcoin lightning network
  - grubles 8y ago
    https://techcrunch.com/2018/03/15/lightning-labs-just-raised-millions-from-jack-dorsey-and-others-to-supercharge-blockchain-transactions/ https://techcrunch.com/2018/03/15/lightning-labs-just-raised...
- retrogradeorbit 8y ago
  "transaction fees are at least an order of magnitude higher than Visa" Transaction fee on bitcoin presently is an average of 60c [1]. Visa is around 2% + 0.10. Thus for transfers over about 25 USD, bitcoin (presently) is cheaper. And that's not considering terminal fees, payment gateway fees, annual fees, monthly fees, early termination fees, statement fees and so on. [1] https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/bitcoin-transactionfees.html https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/bitcoin-transactionfees...
vorpalhex 8y ago
So instead of using ACH which uses a currency with a fairly stable value and has a resolution process, they should use the blockchain instead, hope there are no major security issues in the near future, and hope their transaction eventually settles? > Square creating a liquidity solution How is putting transactions across the blockchain instead of ACH or Swift "more liquid"? I mean, I suppose if you want to evade taxes maybe, but I'm not clear how that actually helps the payment processor. Square doesn't benefit from "liquidity".
- raverbashing 8y ago
  ACH is built on 70s technologies and fails more often than not. Storing transactions on an MS Access DB is probably safer and faster.
  - segmondy 8y ago
    Really? I've a system that has for years swapped NACHA files with a major bank for hundreds of thousands of accounts each day, and without fail it has worked 100% of the time! Guess what we use? SFTP whitelisted to specific IPs. A fixed width GPG encrypted file. That's it. Can't say the same for most of these rubbish REST of an APIs out there that I've had to suffer through. Some 70s technologies btw are great. There's nothing wrong with a well defined fixed width file with checksums. I wish all data files were those or CSVs.
    - raverbashing 8y ago
      > SFTP whitelisted to specific IPs. A fixed width GPG encrypted file. Which is not part of the ACH spec... though I agree it is a good implementation In other parts of the world you can transfer between accounts in almost real time, nobody uses checks anymore for rents or interpersonal transfers or intercompany money transfers. Meanwhile the US still uses checks. ACH is jurassic.
      - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
        > In other parts of the world you can transfer between accounts in almost real time Real-time transfers under $5,000 are free between most American banks. For real-time irreversible transfers up to any amount, the Fedwire system is available. Most banks let large account holders send and receive domestic wires for free. ACH is used for low-cost, gross-settled transfers--it is the cheap, reversible option. This myth of slow, expensive bank transfers dies slowly.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

glitchc 8y ago

I'm not buying the cheaper argument. Which part of transacting on the Bitcoin network is cheaper exactly? Mining is cost-intensive, and transaction fees are at least an order of magnitude higher than Visa. Equating SWIFT to Visa is also disingenuous as the former is meant for cross border settlements where the restrictions are regulatory (AML), not technology. Switching to Bitcoin doesn't mean Square or any other institution can simply ignore AML laws. I see this mainly as a service they wish to provide to a segment of their customer. I also expect it to be a loss leader and shut down over time.

dick_sucker2 8y ago
No chargebacks?
- glitchc 8y ago
  Is that meant as a positive or a negative, as chargebacks help the consumer, as does non-repudiation. The general public wants these features in our exchange mediums.
  - dick_sucker2 8y ago
    It forces arbitration with the business in the case of a dispute. Wouldn't payment processors and businesses want that?
    - s73v3r_ 8y ago
      Consumers don't want that.
      - DINKDINK 8y ago
        You can build a system that allows charge backs on a system that doesn't allow charge backs but you cannot build a system without charge backs on a system that does allow charge backs. These escrow products already exist for customers on Bitcoin.
- paulie_a 8y ago
  That's not a feature it is a drawback.
  - craigc 8y ago
    It is actually a feature. From the original Bitcoin whitepaper: > Transactions that are computationally impractical to reverse would protect sellers from fraud. https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
    - paulie_a 8y ago
      As a buyer I wouldn't use it then.
      - craigc 8y ago
        Mmm. I am not sure if Square actually lets you transact using Bitcoin or if this is just about purchasing and selling it to hold it as an investment. I haven’t actually tested it out.
jes5199 8y ago
maybe they'll get on the Bitcoin lightning network
- grubles 8y ago
  https://techcrunch.com/2018/03/15/lightning-labs-just-raised-millions-from-jack-dorsey-and-others-to-supercharge-blockchain-transactions/ https://techcrunch.com/2018/03/15/lightning-labs-just-raised...
retrogradeorbit 8y ago
"transaction fees are at least an order of magnitude higher than Visa" Transaction fee on bitcoin presently is an average of 60c [1]. Visa is around 2% + 0.10. Thus for transfers over about 25 USD, bitcoin (presently) is cheaper. And that's not considering terminal fees, payment gateway fees, annual fees, monthly fees, early termination fees, statement fees and so on. [1] https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/bitcoin-transactionfees.html https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/bitcoin-transactionfees...

vorpalhex 8y ago

So instead of using ACH which uses a currency with a fairly stable value and has a resolution process, they should use the blockchain instead, hope there are no major security issues in the near future, and hope their transaction eventually settles? > Square creating a liquidity solution How is putting transactions across the blockchain instead of ACH or Swift "more liquid"? I mean, I suppose if you want to evade taxes maybe, but I'm not clear how that actually helps the payment processor. Square doesn't benefit from "liquidity".

raverbashing 8y ago
ACH is built on 70s technologies and fails more often than not. Storing transactions on an MS Access DB is probably safer and faster.
- segmondy 8y ago
  Really? I've a system that has for years swapped NACHA files with a major bank for hundreds of thousands of accounts each day, and without fail it has worked 100% of the time! Guess what we use? SFTP whitelisted to specific IPs. A fixed width GPG encrypted file. That's it. Can't say the same for most of these rubbish REST of an APIs out there that I've had to suffer through. Some 70s technologies btw are great. There's nothing wrong with a well defined fixed width file with checksums. I wish all data files were those or CSVs.
  - raverbashing 8y ago
    > SFTP whitelisted to specific IPs. A fixed width GPG encrypted file. Which is not part of the ACH spec... though I agree it is a good implementation In other parts of the world you can transfer between accounts in almost real time, nobody uses checks anymore for rents or interpersonal transfers or intercompany money transfers. Meanwhile the US still uses checks. ACH is jurassic.
    - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
      > In other parts of the world you can transfer between accounts in almost real time Real-time transfers under $5,000 are free between most American banks. For real-time irreversible transfers up to any amount, the Fedwire system is available. Most banks let large account holders send and receive domestic wires for free. ACH is used for low-cost, gross-settled transfers--it is the cheap, reversible option. This myth of slow, expensive bank transfers dies slowly.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]