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It seems like self-driving cars may not (and maybe should not) become commonplace until the roads are built for self-driving cars – that might be a better thing

It seems like self-driving cars may not (and maybe should not) become commonplace until the roads are built for self-driving cars – that might be a better thing to focus on, instead of systems that mimic human judgment.

sgslo 8y ago
Seems unlikely that road infrastructure will be upgraded/changed prior to construction of self driving cars. When developing the self driving tech, a company retains all IP associated with research/development costs. Would they ever instead pay for development of public infra? Would a municipality build roads that conform to Company A's standard of self driving roads, omitting the requests of Company B?
- ithilglin909 8y ago
  I absolutely agree that it's a tall order, but it seems at least possible that development could happen in tandem, and some kind of standards could be agreed upon for what kind of technologies would be used across the board. I'm picturing that if some new infrastructure and cars implement that, those could be roads on which self-driving cars would be permitted to drive, and a shift would happen gradually.
  - danpat 8y ago
    Volvo proposed embedding small permanent magnets in the road surface that would allow vehicles to track more reliably. Their press-release for it is here, and has a couple of minor technical details: https://www.media.volvocars.com/global/en-gb/media/pressreleases/140760/volvo-car-group-tests-road-magnets-for-accurate-positioning-of-self-driving-cars https://www.media.volvocars.com/global/en-gb/media/pressrele... I kind of liked the idea - it's basically a higher-tech line-following robot concept, and doesn't look too expensive to roll out compare to other proposed infrastructure changes. However, I haven't heard anything about it since the 2014 press frenzy over the release linked above. Maybe getting road maintainers to make changes like this really is too much to ask.
    - slavik81 8y ago
      When I first saw magnetic markers proposed, it was sometime between 1999 and 2005.
- romwell 8y ago
  >Seems unlikely that road infrastructure will be upgraded/changed prior to construction of self driving cars. By that logic, railways would have never been built. "Why would I invest in constructing a special road for that engine of yours? Make it go on dirt roads as well as a horse does, then we'll talk"
  - slededit 8y ago
    Horse and cart never worked all that well, to the point that long distance travel by land was extremely rare. Deep ruts would form in the dirt roadways and mud would cause constant obstruction. It was easier sail around South America than to travel by land between San Francisco and New York City. It wasn't until the railroad that travel by land was possible at scale. For the USA and Canada the railroad was seen as the only way to keep the vast land together as a single nation which is largely why it was subsidized. Further much of the subdisdy was land grants to land which would otherwise be economically useless without the railroad to allow transport of goods. While self driving vehicles may improve efficiency of our roadways it is unlikely to be anywhere near the same scale of improvement that railroads brought, and the need to connect the country for political reasons is not there.
mark-r 8y ago
That's going to be impossible with the last-mile problem. We already have mass transit if you don't care about the last mile.
- 0xffff2 8y ago
  I have a short commute but I often drive all over California on the weekends. Having well-defined points where I could trust the computer to take over would be very useful, even if I had to manually drive certain stretches. This weekend I drove from my home in the bay area to my Dad's home in central California. I could see a very useful system that goes like this - Manually drive to the 101. - Let the car take over until I reach the exit for the 152. - Manually drive over Pacheco pass and get on the 5. - Let the car take over once I'm on the 5. - Car alerts me and I take over manual driving through a construction zone. - Car takes over again until I reach the exit for the 58. - Manually drive the rest of the way. This scenario only involves automation on two of the major N/S arteries in California, yet it would have made my drive much easier.
  - ithilglin909 8y ago
    And probably safer!
- ithilglin909 8y ago
  Can you elaborate? In the near future, it seems unlikely that passenger vehicles are going to be fully driver-less legally in many places, regardless. But I might be misunderstanding what you have in mind.
emodendroket 8y ago
Sure, but the further you go in this direction the more I wonder whether you shouldn't just be improving public transport.
- ithilglin909 8y ago
  Public transportation is related issue, but it hardly solves all the same problems as automated vehicles do -- and eventually, I image, buses and such will be automated vehicles as well.
slavik81 8y ago
I remember seeing stories about self-driving cars on the Discovery Channel as a kid. All they needed were magnetic markers embedded in the roads. The takeaway was that dedicated infrastructure for self-driving cars was too expensive to make happen. The thing that made the recent wave of self-driving vehicles exciting was that they claimed to work on existing roads. Giving that up is giving up their achievement over previous self-driving tech.
- romwell 8y ago
  >The takeaway was that dedicated infrastructure for self-driving cars was too expensive to make happen. Too expensive compared to what? Any kinds of transit system requires dedicated infrastructure. Humans in particular need signs, road markings, traffic lights, etc. Decades of research and optimization went into building that infrastructure so that it would be easy for humans to use safely and effectively. Why is it surprising that this infrastructure simply doesn't work well for computers to operate in? We aren't trying to run trains on unmodified streets. We build rails first. We should do the same for self-driving cars.

sgslo 8y ago

Seems unlikely that road infrastructure will be upgraded/changed prior to construction of self driving cars. When developing the self driving tech, a company retains all IP associated with research/development costs. Would they ever instead pay for development of public infra? Would a municipality build roads that conform to Company A's standard of self driving roads, omitting the requests of Company B?

ithilglin909 8y ago
I absolutely agree that it's a tall order, but it seems at least possible that development could happen in tandem, and some kind of standards could be agreed upon for what kind of technologies would be used across the board. I'm picturing that if some new infrastructure and cars implement that, those could be roads on which self-driving cars would be permitted to drive, and a shift would happen gradually.
- danpat 8y ago
  Volvo proposed embedding small permanent magnets in the road surface that would allow vehicles to track more reliably. Their press-release for it is here, and has a couple of minor technical details: https://www.media.volvocars.com/global/en-gb/media/pressreleases/140760/volvo-car-group-tests-road-magnets-for-accurate-positioning-of-self-driving-cars https://www.media.volvocars.com/global/en-gb/media/pressrele... I kind of liked the idea - it's basically a higher-tech line-following robot concept, and doesn't look too expensive to roll out compare to other proposed infrastructure changes. However, I haven't heard anything about it since the 2014 press frenzy over the release linked above. Maybe getting road maintainers to make changes like this really is too much to ask.
  - slavik81 8y ago
    When I first saw magnetic markers proposed, it was sometime between 1999 and 2005.
romwell 8y ago
>Seems unlikely that road infrastructure will be upgraded/changed prior to construction of self driving cars. By that logic, railways would have never been built. "Why would I invest in constructing a special road for that engine of yours? Make it go on dirt roads as well as a horse does, then we'll talk"
- slededit 8y ago
  Horse and cart never worked all that well, to the point that long distance travel by land was extremely rare. Deep ruts would form in the dirt roadways and mud would cause constant obstruction. It was easier sail around South America than to travel by land between San Francisco and New York City. It wasn't until the railroad that travel by land was possible at scale. For the USA and Canada the railroad was seen as the only way to keep the vast land together as a single nation which is largely why it was subsidized. Further much of the subdisdy was land grants to land which would otherwise be economically useless without the railroad to allow transport of goods. While self driving vehicles may improve efficiency of our roadways it is unlikely to be anywhere near the same scale of improvement that railroads brought, and the need to connect the country for political reasons is not there.

mark-r 8y ago

That's going to be impossible with the last-mile problem. We already have mass transit if you don't care about the last mile.

0xffff2 8y ago
I have a short commute but I often drive all over California on the weekends. Having well-defined points where I could trust the computer to take over would be very useful, even if I had to manually drive certain stretches. This weekend I drove from my home in the bay area to my Dad's home in central California. I could see a very useful system that goes like this - Manually drive to the 101. - Let the car take over until I reach the exit for the 152. - Manually drive over Pacheco pass and get on the 5. - Let the car take over once I'm on the 5. - Car alerts me and I take over manual driving through a construction zone. - Car takes over again until I reach the exit for the 58. - Manually drive the rest of the way. This scenario only involves automation on two of the major N/S arteries in California, yet it would have made my drive much easier.
- ithilglin909 8y ago
  And probably safer!
ithilglin909 8y ago
Can you elaborate? In the near future, it seems unlikely that passenger vehicles are going to be fully driver-less legally in many places, regardless. But I might be misunderstanding what you have in mind.

emodendroket 8y ago

Sure, but the further you go in this direction the more I wonder whether you shouldn't just be improving public transport.

ithilglin909 8y ago
Public transportation is related issue, but it hardly solves all the same problems as automated vehicles do -- and eventually, I image, buses and such will be automated vehicles as well.

slavik81 8y ago

I remember seeing stories about self-driving cars on the Discovery Channel as a kid. All they needed were magnetic markers embedded in the roads. The takeaway was that dedicated infrastructure for self-driving cars was too expensive to make happen. The thing that made the recent wave of self-driving vehicles exciting was that they claimed to work on existing roads. Giving that up is giving up their achievement over previous self-driving tech.

romwell 8y ago
>The takeaway was that dedicated infrastructure for self-driving cars was too expensive to make happen. Too expensive compared to what? Any kinds of transit system requires dedicated infrastructure. Humans in particular need signs, road markings, traffic lights, etc. Decades of research and optimization went into building that infrastructure so that it would be easy for humans to use safely and effectively. Why is it surprising that this infrastructure simply doesn't work well for computers to operate in? We aren't trying to run trains on unmodified streets. We build rails first. We should do the same for self-driving cars.