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> The approach developed by Apple and RapidSOS sends location data from an iPhone to a "clearinghouse" accessible to emergency calling centers. Only the 911 cal

> The approach developed by Apple and RapidSOS sends location data from an iPhone to a "clearinghouse" accessible to emergency calling centers. Only the 911 calling centers will be able to see the data during the call, and none of it can be used for non-emergency purposes, according to Apple. How long until this information is available to law enforcement?

Drakim 8y ago
PUBLIC RELATIONS PERSON: You don't understand, they aren't actively looking at the data so it's not spying. It's just being archived at our central servers for important future use, and any access is subject to warrants (for now). We are working with Google to bring this important life-saving terrorist-defeating child porn-detecting feature to Android. Think of the Children! (I really hope it only sends out the information exactly while the phone is calling 911. Maybe in the future we'll have big debates about whether people should be able to "walk dark" without a mobile tracking device in the streets.)
- abtinf 8y ago
  Why shouldn’t it be archived for future use?
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - Drakim 8y ago
    Why shouldn't all your traffic, location data, and thoughts be archived for future use? Maybe in 30 years we figure out you are one of the undesirables of society, and we'll have an easy time getting rid of you and your kind. It's a great boon for society to preserve all data.
    - abtinf 8y ago
      That is not the context of this news. The context here is recording pertinent information when a person chooses to request emergency law enforcement, medical, and fire services.
      - politician 8y ago
        What's happening here is the normalization of the practice of supplying real-time location information of devices to various government agents by way of an "unassailable good". This is a great feature given 911's notoriously poor ability to locate mobile callers, but let's be real: this shifts the Overton window.
      - rainbowmverse 8y ago
        Imagine the call is from a gay bar (or the vicinity). The data leaks. Now coworkers know, none of them are okay with it (even if they never confirm their assumptions), and there are no legal protections when they get fired. There are a lot of non-obvious ways seemingly-innocent data can harm marginalized groups.
        DmenshunlAnlsis 8y ago
        Your phone already has your location through a number of means, it’s not like 911 is suddenly creating this fact. If you’re going incognito, and you have your phone on you, you’re not incognito.
        rainbowmverse 8y ago
        I'm not okay with that either. Just because data is already collected for one purpose doesn't mean we have to accept further encroachments on privacy. Every one increases the surface area of risk for a dangerous leak.
        dpark 8y ago
        You are calling 911. The purpose of the call is specifically to ask the government to send someone to your location.
abtinf 8y ago
One would hope at launch.
macNchz 8y ago
It already has been for a while, and one of the major suppliers was found recently to have been extremely poorly secured: https://krebsonsecurity.com/2018/05/tracking-firm-locationsmart-leaked-location-data-for-customers-of-all-major-u-s-mobile-carriers-in-real-time-via-its-web-site/ https://krebsonsecurity.com/2018/05/tracking-firm-locationsm...
Spooky23 8y ago
Law enforcement already can get this data from carriers. This allows first responders to get the information from people calling 911. That’s a good thing!
- FireBeyond 8y ago
  The movie stylized version of this has 911 able to trace your location in near realtime. The reality version involves multiple calls or working with a provider and can take up to an hour to get a "Stage 2" (accurate) location. It doesn't happen in real time. "Stage 1" data gives Dispatch a lat/long, with a confidence percentage.
unethical_ban 8y ago
In order of increasing sophistication of argument: - Your phone sends your broad location to your provider constantly, and your precise location (when enabled) to tons of applications. If you are worried about LEO having your location, 911 services is not the first battleground I would choose. - There could be a legal argument, I assume, that calling 911 acts as consent of the precise tracking of location for the purposes of emergency response, while blanket collection without a warrant would be a violation of civil liberties.
jonknee 8y ago
> How long until this information is available to law enforcement? Well in this case that's entirely the point, people are calling law enforcement. But if you were concerned that someone could just pull up your location at any time, their system only gets your location data when you call 911: https://info.rapidsos.com/blog/bringing-apple-device-location-to-911 https://info.rapidsos.com/blog/bringing-apple-device-locatio... > When this feature is made available later this year in an iOS software update, Apple phones will send fast and accurate device location to the NG911 Clearinghouse when a user dials 9-1-1. That said, law enforcement can already look up where your phone is based on tower triangulation. This is just about getting more detailed information to first responders more quickly.
- craftyguy 8y ago
  > people are calling law enforcement. Not always. Sometimes it's a medical emergency, or a fire. Law enforcement's access to precise location information should be limited to strictly only emergency scenarios that require their involvement. Any other use should be protected behind a warrant, but it's not clear that this is the case. This is a big shiny object for them that would 'help' in a wide variety of non-emergency situations, so expect abuse. > law enforcement can already look up where your phone is based on tower triangulation Tower triangulation is not very accurate. This technology is about being able to locate someone within a handful of meters, not within a a few hundred km^2. It's orders of magnitude more powerful than the current technology they have.
  - jonknee 8y ago
    > This is a big shiny object for them that would 'help' in a wide variety of non-emergency situations, so expect abuse. Did you miss the part where I linked to and quoted that this data is only sent from your phone to the database when you call 911? In non-emergency situations no one will be able to search this database for your location because your location is not in the database.
    - craftyguy 8y ago
      > when you call 911? Right, and there's no possibility for this system being abused in non-emergency situations? Oh please.

Drakim 8y ago

PUBLIC RELATIONS PERSON: You don't understand, they aren't actively looking at the data so it's not spying. It's just being archived at our central servers for important future use, and any access is subject to warrants (for now). We are working with Google to bring this important life-saving terrorist-defeating child porn-detecting feature to Android. Think of the Children! (I really hope it only sends out the information exactly while the phone is calling 911. Maybe in the future we'll have big debates about whether people should be able to "walk dark" without a mobile tracking device in the streets.)

abtinf 8y ago
Why shouldn’t it be archived for future use?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- Drakim 8y ago
  Why shouldn't all your traffic, location data, and thoughts be archived for future use? Maybe in 30 years we figure out you are one of the undesirables of society, and we'll have an easy time getting rid of you and your kind. It's a great boon for society to preserve all data.
  - abtinf 8y ago
    That is not the context of this news. The context here is recording pertinent information when a person chooses to request emergency law enforcement, medical, and fire services.
    - politician 8y ago
      What's happening here is the normalization of the practice of supplying real-time location information of devices to various government agents by way of an "unassailable good". This is a great feature given 911's notoriously poor ability to locate mobile callers, but let's be real: this shifts the Overton window.
    - rainbowmverse 8y ago
      Imagine the call is from a gay bar (or the vicinity). The data leaks. Now coworkers know, none of them are okay with it (even if they never confirm their assumptions), and there are no legal protections when they get fired. There are a lot of non-obvious ways seemingly-innocent data can harm marginalized groups.
      - DmenshunlAnlsis 8y ago
        Your phone already has your location through a number of means, it’s not like 911 is suddenly creating this fact. If you’re going incognito, and you have your phone on you, you’re not incognito.
        rainbowmverse 8y ago
        I'm not okay with that either. Just because data is already collected for one purpose doesn't mean we have to accept further encroachments on privacy. Every one increases the surface area of risk for a dangerous leak.
      - dpark 8y ago
        You are calling 911. The purpose of the call is specifically to ask the government to send someone to your location.

abtinf 8y ago

One would hope at launch.

macNchz 8y ago

It already has been for a while, and one of the major suppliers was found recently to have been extremely poorly secured: https://krebsonsecurity.com/2018/05/tracking-firm-locationsmart-leaked-location-data-for-customers-of-all-major-u-s-mobile-carriers-in-real-time-via-its-web-site/ https://krebsonsecurity.com/2018/05/tracking-firm-locationsm...

Spooky23 8y ago

Law enforcement already can get this data from carriers. This allows first responders to get the information from people calling 911. That’s a good thing!

FireBeyond 8y ago
The movie stylized version of this has 911 able to trace your location in near realtime. The reality version involves multiple calls or working with a provider and can take up to an hour to get a "Stage 2" (accurate) location. It doesn't happen in real time. "Stage 1" data gives Dispatch a lat/long, with a confidence percentage.

unethical_ban 8y ago

In order of increasing sophistication of argument: - Your phone sends your broad location to your provider constantly, and your precise location (when enabled) to tons of applications. If you are worried about LEO having your location, 911 services is not the first battleground I would choose. - There could be a legal argument, I assume, that calling 911 acts as consent of the precise tracking of location for the purposes of emergency response, while blanket collection without a warrant would be a violation of civil liberties.

jonknee 8y ago

> How long until this information is available to law enforcement? Well in this case that's entirely the point, people are calling law enforcement. But if you were concerned that someone could just pull up your location at any time, their system only gets your location data when you call 911: https://info.rapidsos.com/blog/bringing-apple-device-location-to-911 https://info.rapidsos.com/blog/bringing-apple-device-locatio... > When this feature is made available later this year in an iOS software update, Apple phones will send fast and accurate device location to the NG911 Clearinghouse when a user dials 9-1-1. That said, law enforcement can already look up where your phone is based on tower triangulation. This is just about getting more detailed information to first responders more quickly.

craftyguy 8y ago
> people are calling law enforcement. Not always. Sometimes it's a medical emergency, or a fire. Law enforcement's access to precise location information should be limited to strictly only emergency scenarios that require their involvement. Any other use should be protected behind a warrant, but it's not clear that this is the case. This is a big shiny object for them that would 'help' in a wide variety of non-emergency situations, so expect abuse. > law enforcement can already look up where your phone is based on tower triangulation Tower triangulation is not very accurate. This technology is about being able to locate someone within a handful of meters, not within a a few hundred km^2. It's orders of magnitude more powerful than the current technology they have.
- jonknee 8y ago
  > This is a big shiny object for them that would 'help' in a wide variety of non-emergency situations, so expect abuse. Did you miss the part where I linked to and quoted that this data is only sent from your phone to the database when you call 911? In non-emergency situations no one will be able to search this database for your location because your location is not in the database.
  - craftyguy 8y ago
    > when you call 911? Right, and there's no possibility for this system being abused in non-emergency situations? Oh please.