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If only American CEOs saw justice beyond priced-in “fines.” Good for Germany

JumpCrisscross 8y ago
> If only American CEOs saw justice beyond priced-in “fines” We’re one week out from Elizabeth Holmes’ criminal indictment.
- opportune 8y ago
  Only because she ripped off investors. Ripping off consumers goes unpunished
  - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
    > Ripping off consumers goes unpunished The FBI arrested a VW executive in Florida in connection with this same scandal [1]. And last year, Insys’ CEO was arrested [2]. Watch your confirmation bias. [1] https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/01/09/business/volkswagen-diesel-emissions-investigation-settlement.html https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/01/09/business/volkswagen-di... [2] https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/US/drug-companys-billionaire-ceo-arrested-nationwide-bribery-scam/story%3fid=50737965 https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/US/drug-comp...
    - alfredallan1 8y ago
      Let’s look at some other biases - so one exec from VW (a foreign company) was taken in. How many from GM who are just as guilty? What about the Equifax lot? Wells Fargo? The banks pushing crappy MBSs and ABSs on pensioners?
      - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
        > How many from GM who are just as guilty? What about the Equifax lot? Broadly speaking, you get fined for fucking up. You get jailed for covering it up. American commercial law largely protects company Boards and executives from their own stupidity. This is necessary, since the difference between madness and genius can only be ascertained ex post facto.
  - yardie 8y ago
    Ripping off the government gets you a governorship. See Florida governor, Rick Scott.
ams6110 8y ago
What cases are you thinking of, in particular? Most of what comes to my mind (e.g. Equifax) would be claims falling under civil law, for which we don't arrest people.
- opportune 8y ago
  Fraud around MBS and CDOs coupled with institutionalized policies of selling mortgages to unqualified lenders, in the period before the recession Quantitative hedge funds like Renaissance not paying their fair share of taxes (this effectively means they used unpaid taxes as arbitrage) Wells Fargo executives institutionalizing fraud regarding fake accounts to pump up numbers, both an SEC violation and considered consumer fraud And in general we as a country need more punishments when you defraud consumers other than “oops we’ll just pay you back after a class action lawsuit :)”. That’s not at all a reasonable deterrent - and as I alluded if a firm’s perceived chances of getting caught/ what they’ll have to pay are low enough and the rewards are sufficiently high, they may consciously find it more profitable to break the law. The same goes for fines.
  - whatok 8y ago
    How have "quantitative hedge funds" not paid their "fair share" of taxes? Are you suggesting that they evade taxes?
    - heavenlyblue 8y ago
      Yeah - can we get some evidence or at least a good article about this one?
    - opportune 8y ago
      https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-moneymans-dollar7-billion-secret-war-with-the-irs https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-moneymans-dollar7-billio... The IRS’s wording suggests that other funds may have also been improperly using basket options. I’m admittedly not even close to being a tax law expert so I can’t really offer much more analysis I’m pretty sure I was wrong that the taxes were being used as arbitrage, though. The allegedly unpaid taxes seem to be based on payments out of the fund to employees
eeZah7Ux 8y ago
> Good for Germany Sadly, in the "Nash game" of international commerce a country wants to keep other countries' companies on check, while leaving its own free to pollute (elsewhere) and bend regulations. That's the reason for having international regulations.
stephengillie 8y ago
How do we prevent people from seeing laws as obstacles, and routing around them? Routing around obstacles - legal or otherwise - seems to be a core pillar of the startup mindset.

> If only American CEOs saw justice beyond priced-in “fines” We’re one week out from Elizabeth Holmes’ criminal indictment.

opportune 8y ago
Only because she ripped off investors. Ripping off consumers goes unpunished
- JumpCrisscross 8y ago
  > Ripping off consumers goes unpunished The FBI arrested a VW executive in Florida in connection with this same scandal [1]. And last year, Insys’ CEO was arrested [2]. Watch your confirmation bias. [1] https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/01/09/business/volkswagen-diesel-emissions-investigation-settlement.html https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/01/09/business/volkswagen-di... [2] https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/US/drug-companys-billionaire-ceo-arrested-nationwide-bribery-scam/story%3fid=50737965 https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/US/drug-comp...
  - alfredallan1 8y ago
    Let’s look at some other biases - so one exec from VW (a foreign company) was taken in. How many from GM who are just as guilty? What about the Equifax lot? Wells Fargo? The banks pushing crappy MBSs and ABSs on pensioners?
    - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
      > How many from GM who are just as guilty? What about the Equifax lot? Broadly speaking, you get fined for fucking up. You get jailed for covering it up. American commercial law largely protects company Boards and executives from their own stupidity. This is necessary, since the difference between madness and genius can only be ascertained ex post facto.
- yardie 8y ago
  Ripping off the government gets you a governorship. See Florida governor, Rick Scott.

ams6110 8y ago

What cases are you thinking of, in particular? Most of what comes to my mind (e.g. Equifax) would be claims falling under civil law, for which we don't arrest people.

opportune 8y ago
Fraud around MBS and CDOs coupled with institutionalized policies of selling mortgages to unqualified lenders, in the period before the recession Quantitative hedge funds like Renaissance not paying their fair share of taxes (this effectively means they used unpaid taxes as arbitrage) Wells Fargo executives institutionalizing fraud regarding fake accounts to pump up numbers, both an SEC violation and considered consumer fraud And in general we as a country need more punishments when you defraud consumers other than “oops we’ll just pay you back after a class action lawsuit :)”. That’s not at all a reasonable deterrent - and as I alluded if a firm’s perceived chances of getting caught/ what they’ll have to pay are low enough and the rewards are sufficiently high, they may consciously find it more profitable to break the law. The same goes for fines.
- whatok 8y ago
  How have "quantitative hedge funds" not paid their "fair share" of taxes? Are you suggesting that they evade taxes?
  - heavenlyblue 8y ago
    Yeah - can we get some evidence or at least a good article about this one?
  - opportune 8y ago
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-moneymans-dollar7-billion-secret-war-with-the-irs https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-moneymans-dollar7-billio... The IRS’s wording suggests that other funds may have also been improperly using basket options. I’m admittedly not even close to being a tax law expert so I can’t really offer much more analysis I’m pretty sure I was wrong that the taxes were being used as arbitrage, though. The allegedly unpaid taxes seem to be based on payments out of the fund to employees

eeZah7Ux 8y ago

> Good for Germany Sadly, in the "Nash game" of international commerce a country wants to keep other countries' companies on check, while leaving its own free to pollute (elsewhere) and bend regulations. That's the reason for having international regulations.

stephengillie 8y ago

How do we prevent people from seeing laws as obstacles, and routing around them? Routing around obstacles - legal or otherwise - seems to be a core pillar of the startup mindset.