3 ms·

It's not an either/or situation.

by freehunter 8y ago

vetinari 8y ago
It is. It is being called 'dancing pig problem'.
- freehunter 8y ago
  That's not exactly what I meant. I work in information security and I can't name a single colleague who would argue that a normal user should have full admin access to any machine right out of the box, but people like you and me who are responsible and educated enough not to make uninformed decisions should be able to have admin access. There are tons of ways that both can be accomplished at the same time. Linux, for example, does it out of the box. Most Linux systems don't give you root access, and some even disable logins to the root account altogether. You have to specifically escalate your privileges. If the user account isn't in the sudoers group, tough luck. Windows has UAC for this, too. I find it very lacking, but it's better than nothing. macOS has a similar permissions system. Application whitelisting is another great option. Let users install trusted and signed programs, while admins have the ability to install anything they want. And also look for iOS versus Android. Almost no one using iOS is able to install random applications from the Internet, and it still has huge marketshare because most people don't care. Android is an option for those who do care. It's not either/or. Options exist for both use cases. What responsible tech people need to do is use the option they're most comfortable with, while steering normal end users towards the safest option possible. It's even as simple as installing Windows, giving the user a normal (unprivileged) account, and just not giving them the admin password. The dancing pig problem has been solved.
  - vetinari 8y ago
    Sure, but most people who shouldn't have admin access do not have them already, (if the machine they use is managed). Even with Windows, if you are not in Administrators group, and your try something that requires UAC, tough luck, just like with sudo. That leaves us with private machines: should the user have the admin access, if it is his private machine? He is the owner after all. If "not yet", who and when will grant it, when the need arises/the user educates himself/etc? Also, how will the user, who is willing to educate himself able to do, when he is not allowed to try and fail? iOS turned this into a big brother scenario: there is someone else, who has to approve any program that you can run on the device. However, Apple might have objectives and responsibilities that may be different than yours, and they may deny you running an app, that is otherwise perfectly fine (and not just for technical reasons: imagine living in Crimea today, for example). Even on Android, there are things that you may legitimately want to do, but out of the box the system won't let you - you may either need the same signing key that the platform is signed with, or full blown root (backing up the device, for example). Both of these platforms take away possibilities in the name of what the mainstream user supposedly wants, and nobody is going to ask you, whether you are competent to use these features or not. Once you lose these possibilities, they are not going back.

It's not an either/or situation.

vetinari 8y ago

It is. It is being called 'dancing pig problem'.

freehunter 8y ago
That's not exactly what I meant. I work in information security and I can't name a single colleague who would argue that a normal user should have full admin access to any machine right out of the box, but people like you and me who are responsible and educated enough not to make uninformed decisions should be able to have admin access. There are tons of ways that both can be accomplished at the same time. Linux, for example, does it out of the box. Most Linux systems don't give you root access, and some even disable logins to the root account altogether. You have to specifically escalate your privileges. If the user account isn't in the sudoers group, tough luck. Windows has UAC for this, too. I find it very lacking, but it's better than nothing. macOS has a similar permissions system. Application whitelisting is another great option. Let users install trusted and signed programs, while admins have the ability to install anything they want. And also look for iOS versus Android. Almost no one using iOS is able to install random applications from the Internet, and it still has huge marketshare because most people don't care. Android is an option for those who do care. It's not either/or. Options exist for both use cases. What responsible tech people need to do is use the option they're most comfortable with, while steering normal end users towards the safest option possible. It's even as simple as installing Windows, giving the user a normal (unprivileged) account, and just not giving them the admin password. The dancing pig problem has been solved.
- vetinari 8y ago
  Sure, but most people who shouldn't have admin access do not have them already, (if the machine they use is managed). Even with Windows, if you are not in Administrators group, and your try something that requires UAC, tough luck, just like with sudo. That leaves us with private machines: should the user have the admin access, if it is his private machine? He is the owner after all. If "not yet", who and when will grant it, when the need arises/the user educates himself/etc? Also, how will the user, who is willing to educate himself able to do, when he is not allowed to try and fail? iOS turned this into a big brother scenario: there is someone else, who has to approve any program that you can run on the device. However, Apple might have objectives and responsibilities that may be different than yours, and they may deny you running an app, that is otherwise perfectly fine (and not just for technical reasons: imagine living in Crimea today, for example). Even on Android, there are things that you may legitimately want to do, but out of the box the system won't let you - you may either need the same signing key that the platform is signed with, or full blown root (backing up the device, for example). Both of these platforms take away possibilities in the name of what the mainstream user supposedly wants, and nobody is going to ask you, whether you are competent to use these features or not. Once you lose these possibilities, they are not going back.