3 ms·

This is a tangent, but I noticed how this line feels like it (almost) requires no further support: "liberal democracy’s current ills have opened an.." While I

This is a tangent, but I noticed how this line feels like it (almost) requires no further support: "liberal democracy’s current ills have opened an.." While I'm not disagreeing, just don't recall reading a decent narration on what exactly is going on. What are liberal democracies' current ills? Did we agree on a list, when I wasn't looking?

simonh 8y ago
There are some trends in current international relations that are worrying for many people who support liberal democratic principles. The failure of the Euro, which was a landmark liberal project. The Brexit vote in Britain. American protectionism. Russian political interference and military aggression. China's renewed suppression of individual liberties and its moves to export it's totalitarian and censorious principles abroad. To be sure some of these are self-inflicted. The Euro was badly conceived and implemented. Brexit and Trump are the result of democratic votes. However they are clearly signs of a general swing away from liberal values. Liberalism and it's proponents in it's broadest sense bears much of the blame for all of this. By liberalism I do not mean socialism. I'm a lifelong Conservative voter. I believe in individual freedom and see the EU with it's freedoms of movement and trade as a cornerstone of individual liberties here in Britain and the rest of Europe. Trade free of arbitrary and capricious tariffs is another important freedom we are in danger of having curtailed. The Good Friday agreement that brought peace to Northern Ireland did so by granting Northern Irish the freedom to choose British or Irish citizenship or both and opened up the border, a triumph of increased individual liberty, and is under threat due to Brexit. Liberalism in it's broad sense cuts across the left/right political divide, at least here in the UK.
- blattimwind 8y ago
  The Euro has failed? That's news to me.
  - growlist 8y ago
    Unemployment is at high levels in several eurozone countries, and this is blamed by some on the euro, and if you consider this a fair assessment and are unemployed I suppose you might think the euro has failed for you.
    - candiodari 8y ago
      And if you were an elderly Greek, and saw your (not very generous to begin with by Eurozone norms) pension cut by 75% in order to save some German banks ? Would you consider that "failed" assessment to be fair ? Investors, by contrast, might say that despite all the damage done to Eurozone economies (most, but of course, not all, Eurozone economies, ie. the PIIGS), European banks are ... well "teetering on the edge of bankruptcy" is perhaps not a fair assessment, but they're ~90% closer to it than they were at the beginning of the Euro project. Savers, bond investors, ... have similar complaints : they haven't been able to invest productively. And for what ? Even if they were altruistic : GDP hasn't exactly taken off in the Eurozone, in fact quite the opposite. Even Germany's GDP evolution can at best be referred to as "not a disaster". Greece's would be far beyond "catastrophe", and everyone else is in between. But yes, 25 year olds who have a stable job find travel easier (of course, that's because the economic misery of others makes travel cheaper, otherwise the Euro would just have made it more obvious that they couldn't travel)
      - growlist 8y ago
        You misinterpret me - I think this unemployment problem is a scandalous waste of potential.
  - simonh 8y ago
    Recent reforms in it's implementation have made big improvements, but the inflexibility of it's initial implementation brought disaster to Greece and near-disaster to Ireland, Portugal and severe harm to others. The Euro was supposed to stop things like that happening, but instead it made them considerably worse than they needed to be. That was a failure. I mean it failed to achieve some vitally important goals of economic stability it was supposed to guarantee.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - iuguy 8y ago
    From the parent: > By liberalism I do not mean socialism. I'm a lifelong Conservative voter. From his perspective, the Euro has failed. But then again, this guy supports the party that caused Brexit, has decimated our healthcare system and is literally in power at the whim of a group of corrupt far-right religious nutjobs with direct links to terrorism (by which I mean the DUP, not the Conservative Party).
- growlist 8y ago
  You assert that the good Friday agreement is under threat due to Brexit; others might say that it is under threat due to Michel Barnier's game playing. Edit: all I'm trying to point out here is that the parent's comment on GFA is merely an opinion, and there are opposing viewpoints also.
slavik81 8y ago
It makes more sense in context of the physical newspaper where you will usually see all their articles, in addition to the theme on the cover. They covered that in an article, "After decades of triumph, democracy is losing ground" — https://www.economist.com/international/2018/06/16/after-decades-of-triumph-democracy-is-losing-ground https://www.economist.com/international/2018/06/16/after-dec...
- dalbasal 8y ago
  Oh cheers. That does make a lot more sense. I was slightly disconcerted that the Economist would just throw in that line, as a matter of trivial fact. It's like a major discussion concluded without my knowledge.

simonh 8y ago

There are some trends in current international relations that are worrying for many people who support liberal democratic principles. The failure of the Euro, which was a landmark liberal project. The Brexit vote in Britain. American protectionism. Russian political interference and military aggression. China's renewed suppression of individual liberties and its moves to export it's totalitarian and censorious principles abroad. To be sure some of these are self-inflicted. The Euro was badly conceived and implemented. Brexit and Trump are the result of democratic votes. However they are clearly signs of a general swing away from liberal values. Liberalism and it's proponents in it's broadest sense bears much of the blame for all of this. By liberalism I do not mean socialism. I'm a lifelong Conservative voter. I believe in individual freedom and see the EU with it's freedoms of movement and trade as a cornerstone of individual liberties here in Britain and the rest of Europe. Trade free of arbitrary and capricious tariffs is another important freedom we are in danger of having curtailed. The Good Friday agreement that brought peace to Northern Ireland did so by granting Northern Irish the freedom to choose British or Irish citizenship or both and opened up the border, a triumph of increased individual liberty, and is under threat due to Brexit. Liberalism in it's broad sense cuts across the left/right political divide, at least here in the UK.

blattimwind 8y ago
The Euro has failed? That's news to me.
- growlist 8y ago
  Unemployment is at high levels in several eurozone countries, and this is blamed by some on the euro, and if you consider this a fair assessment and are unemployed I suppose you might think the euro has failed for you.
  - candiodari 8y ago
    And if you were an elderly Greek, and saw your (not very generous to begin with by Eurozone norms) pension cut by 75% in order to save some German banks ? Would you consider that "failed" assessment to be fair ? Investors, by contrast, might say that despite all the damage done to Eurozone economies (most, but of course, not all, Eurozone economies, ie. the PIIGS), European banks are ... well "teetering on the edge of bankruptcy" is perhaps not a fair assessment, but they're ~90% closer to it than they were at the beginning of the Euro project. Savers, bond investors, ... have similar complaints : they haven't been able to invest productively. And for what ? Even if they were altruistic : GDP hasn't exactly taken off in the Eurozone, in fact quite the opposite. Even Germany's GDP evolution can at best be referred to as "not a disaster". Greece's would be far beyond "catastrophe", and everyone else is in between. But yes, 25 year olds who have a stable job find travel easier (of course, that's because the economic misery of others makes travel cheaper, otherwise the Euro would just have made it more obvious that they couldn't travel)
    - growlist 8y ago
      You misinterpret me - I think this unemployment problem is a scandalous waste of potential.
- simonh 8y ago
  Recent reforms in it's implementation have made big improvements, but the inflexibility of it's initial implementation brought disaster to Greece and near-disaster to Ireland, Portugal and severe harm to others. The Euro was supposed to stop things like that happening, but instead it made them considerably worse than they needed to be. That was a failure. I mean it failed to achieve some vitally important goals of economic stability it was supposed to guarantee.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- iuguy 8y ago
  From the parent: > By liberalism I do not mean socialism. I'm a lifelong Conservative voter. From his perspective, the Euro has failed. But then again, this guy supports the party that caused Brexit, has decimated our healthcare system and is literally in power at the whim of a group of corrupt far-right religious nutjobs with direct links to terrorism (by which I mean the DUP, not the Conservative Party).
growlist 8y ago
You assert that the good Friday agreement is under threat due to Brexit; others might say that it is under threat due to Michel Barnier's game playing. Edit: all I'm trying to point out here is that the parent's comment on GFA is merely an opinion, and there are opposing viewpoints also.

slavik81 8y ago

It makes more sense in context of the physical newspaper where you will usually see all their articles, in addition to the theme on the cover. They covered that in an article, "After decades of triumph, democracy is losing ground" — https://www.economist.com/international/2018/06/16/after-decades-of-triumph-democracy-is-losing-ground https://www.economist.com/international/2018/06/16/after-dec...

dalbasal 8y ago
Oh cheers. That does make a lot more sense. I was slightly disconcerted that the Economist would just throw in that line, as a matter of trivial fact. It's like a major discussion concluded without my knowledge.