6 ms·

This reminds me of a practice in Japan, where employees who can't be laid off (for legal reasons) are sent to the "Boredom Room", to essentially do nothing unti

This reminds me of a practice in Japan, where employees who can't be laid off (for legal reasons) are sent to the "Boredom Room", to essentially do nothing until they're motivated to quit. https://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/17/business/global/layoffs-illegal-japan-workers-are-sent-to-the-boredom-room.html https://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/17/business/global/layoffs-i...

nomocrypto 8y ago
Oh, I know plenty of people who do IT at a local big (US) university and promoting someone downward (i.e. into a role designed to be so boring they quit) is absolutely a thing.
patio11 8y ago
In some cases it is worse than doing essentially nothing: you're made to, e.g., perform some data processing task on a newspaper (e.g. write the readings of every kanji in this newspaper; that will take you about a day) and then, at the end of the day, your work product is checked for ~15 seconds to verify that you're not slacking and then shredded in front of your eyes. See you tomorrow.
- PakG1 8y ago
  That reminds me of the story of Nazi officers telling Jews to carry big rocks from one fence to the other each day. The work was so meaningless that the prisoners couldn't take it anymore and started to jump onto the electric fence to kill themselves. I think such a practice where you make someone feel completely worthless is inhumane.
  - aaron695 8y ago
    I doubt this is true, source? Doesn't sound logical. Humans are very resilient, they adapt to misery quickly. People often kill themselves when things get better, when life is so bad you just get on with it. They know the war can't go on forever, so there's hope. Sounds like work for the guards, why would they waste their time organising it. It'd be lazier to confine people to barracks. Why waste slave labour when there's a war going on. I'm not saying people don't suicide in concentration camps, one did the other day on Manus island, but this is not the story you're telling.
  - xab9 8y ago
    Welcome to the wonderful world of modern capitalism.
    - tudelo 8y ago
      I'm sure you're just summarizing your view or making a joke in a really bad way. But does having a restriction on firing employees even coincide with capitalism?
    - ggg9990 8y ago
      Pure capitalism can literally never sustain useless work.
      - FranzFerdiNaN 8y ago
        Of course it can. Capitalism is not about being the best or most effective, it's about having the deepest pockets. And being the best is by far not the best way to get those pockets.
    - kentrado 8y ago
      Don't know why you are being downvoted. That's an excellent point. Hell, even Albert Camus made the same comparison calling Sisyphus the proletariat of the Gods.
- toadi 8y ago
  This is so funny. Because this was how teacher disciplined us in high school. We had to copy a document for several times by next day where it got shredded in front of our eyes.
  - christophilus 8y ago
    Detention at my school made us copy encyclopedia articles. What I would do is find an article about an author, then write my own sci-fi or fantasy short stories, claiming they were by that author. It was really quite fun, as I enjoy creative writing.
- gaius 8y ago
  “Writing lines” was (perhaps still is) a common punishment in British schools: copy something out 100 times then the teacher would tear it up in front of you with a big grin on their face. Not sure it actually taught anything other than “don’t get caught next time”.
  - gscott 8y ago
    That is how I learned cursive. Trying to write one line hundreds of times, the only efficient way is cursive.
    - mieseratte 8y ago
      My trick was to write the first word on each line, then the second, and so forth. I don't know if it was truly faster, but it sure seemed that way. Teachers also felt like that wasn't in the spirit of the punishment so it had the added fun of sticking it to "the man!"
      - bungie4 8y ago
        I learned to write on a blackboard with both arms at the same time (an ability which has had me labeled a freak!). In this case, it worked great so long as nobody saw you do it, and, the phrase wasn't two long.
        exikyut 8y ago
        I knew simultaneous ambidextrousness wasn't that unusual. Still yet to tackle that one (after I learn ambidextrousness).
        chrisfinne 8y ago
        my high school math teacher could - write perfectly on the board while looking at the class - write a complete sentence starting from both ends meeting perfectly in the middle
- dannyw 8y ago
  Ancient version of proof of work! Difficult to perform, quick to verify, completely useless.
- billbrown 8y ago
  If you want to see this dramatized, there's a French film called _Stupeur et tremblements_ (_Fear and Trembling_) that is very well done.
- pwaai 8y ago
  It reminds me of Japanese prisons. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJp9nKaO7c4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJp9nKaO7c4 I feel like this level of systematic dehumanization should be banned as it inflicts unnecessary suffering with no real benefit to society. but Japan has the lowest crime rates because the prosecution has a track record of 99% conviction rate. You might be thinking oh fuck thats fucked up but it actually deters Japanese citizens from deviating from the law. Because no matter what they are going to throw the book at you with only 1% chance of not going to jail. When it's that biased the return on criminal action at an individual level is negative. And as a result Japan has a thriving organized criminal economy and it makes sense, when you have a lot of disposable soldiers, don't need to pay severance (they do with their fingers), unregulated labor workforce, suddenly you've created an enormously profitable criminal enterprise that reaches into every aspect of Japanese society-pornography, brothels, stock market, celebrities, media.
  - nickfromseattle 8y ago
    The U.S. has a similar rate in the federal court system, still lots of crime. I don't think it's the punishment.
    - shubb 8y ago
      One aspect could be crime recording. A 99% conviction rate says two things for me: - High risk of false positives - Only straight forward cases are being tried, so presumably police are memory holing cases that they can't clean up quickly.
  - toomanybeersies 8y ago
    Japan's justice system isn't all it looks like on the surface. They have a habit of forcing confessions out of suspects [1], sexual assault and harassment is massively unreported, and murders are often ruled as suicides if there are no clear suspects. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-20810572 https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-20810572
  - csa 8y ago
    This isn't quite the whole story. Typically (not always), if someone goes to prison, it is because of them using up many chances to avoid going -- or they did something particularly heinous. Japanese prisons are not flooded with minor drug violators like US prisons are. First, the police I've met in Japan are VERY willing to look the other way rather than convict someone on a serious-but-relatively-minor offense (e.g., drinking and driving while not "drunk"). I have also known them to handle delicate situations in very diplomatic ways (e.g., appropriate but definitely illegal street justice). The stories I have heard of people going to jail involved that person breaking the law repeatedly and with multiple warnings (usu. with accompanying letters they had to write saying that they would not continue to behave in a criminal way). In the more provincial areas (even the small cities), the police actually have a pretty good feel of what is going on in their towns -- the speed of gossip is impressive. If anyone is acting up, it would not be surprising for the police to find out and just go have a friendly talk with that person reminding them that doing $CRIME is, well, a crime that might have very unfortunate consequences. That discussion usually puts a lid on it. I will also add that for a very large portion of the population, the peer pressure to conform goes extremely far in discouraging people from doing things that would put them in prison. The idea of prison itself is just a foreign idea for most people. I haven not recently updated my reading on the Japanese criminal justice system (most of my knowledge is 10+ years old), but I don't recall reading much that made me feel like there were many prisoners were in prison unreasonably. A few were, but just a few, and completely different than the US where it's obvious that quite a few people are in prison for things like minor offenses, getting framed, not being able to afford decent representation, etc.
- scruple 8y ago
  > at the end of the day, your work product is checked for ~15 seconds to verify that you're not slacking and then shredded in front of your eyes. See you tomorrow. Wow, that is incredible (in a very negative / brutal sense). It's like forcing burnout on a person to motivate them to leave.

nomocrypto 8y ago

Oh, I know plenty of people who do IT at a local big (US) university and promoting someone downward (i.e. into a role designed to be so boring they quit) is absolutely a thing.

patio11 8y ago

In some cases it is worse than doing essentially nothing: you're made to, e.g., perform some data processing task on a newspaper (e.g. write the readings of every kanji in this newspaper; that will take you about a day) and then, at the end of the day, your work product is checked for ~15 seconds to verify that you're not slacking and then shredded in front of your eyes. See you tomorrow.

PakG1 8y ago
That reminds me of the story of Nazi officers telling Jews to carry big rocks from one fence to the other each day. The work was so meaningless that the prisoners couldn't take it anymore and started to jump onto the electric fence to kill themselves. I think such a practice where you make someone feel completely worthless is inhumane.
- aaron695 8y ago
  I doubt this is true, source? Doesn't sound logical. Humans are very resilient, they adapt to misery quickly. People often kill themselves when things get better, when life is so bad you just get on with it. They know the war can't go on forever, so there's hope. Sounds like work for the guards, why would they waste their time organising it. It'd be lazier to confine people to barracks. Why waste slave labour when there's a war going on. I'm not saying people don't suicide in concentration camps, one did the other day on Manus island, but this is not the story you're telling.
- xab9 8y ago
  Welcome to the wonderful world of modern capitalism.
  - tudelo 8y ago
    I'm sure you're just summarizing your view or making a joke in a really bad way. But does having a restriction on firing employees even coincide with capitalism?
  - ggg9990 8y ago
    Pure capitalism can literally never sustain useless work.
    - FranzFerdiNaN 8y ago
      Of course it can. Capitalism is not about being the best or most effective, it's about having the deepest pockets. And being the best is by far not the best way to get those pockets.
  - kentrado 8y ago
    Don't know why you are being downvoted. That's an excellent point. Hell, even Albert Camus made the same comparison calling Sisyphus the proletariat of the Gods.
toadi 8y ago
This is so funny. Because this was how teacher disciplined us in high school. We had to copy a document for several times by next day where it got shredded in front of our eyes.
- christophilus 8y ago
  Detention at my school made us copy encyclopedia articles. What I would do is find an article about an author, then write my own sci-fi or fantasy short stories, claiming they were by that author. It was really quite fun, as I enjoy creative writing.
gaius 8y ago
“Writing lines” was (perhaps still is) a common punishment in British schools: copy something out 100 times then the teacher would tear it up in front of you with a big grin on their face. Not sure it actually taught anything other than “don’t get caught next time”.
- gscott 8y ago
  That is how I learned cursive. Trying to write one line hundreds of times, the only efficient way is cursive.
  - mieseratte 8y ago
    My trick was to write the first word on each line, then the second, and so forth. I don't know if it was truly faster, but it sure seemed that way. Teachers also felt like that wasn't in the spirit of the punishment so it had the added fun of sticking it to "the man!"
    - bungie4 8y ago
      I learned to write on a blackboard with both arms at the same time (an ability which has had me labeled a freak!). In this case, it worked great so long as nobody saw you do it, and, the phrase wasn't two long.
      - exikyut 8y ago
        I knew simultaneous ambidextrousness wasn't that unusual. Still yet to tackle that one (after I learn ambidextrousness).
        chrisfinne 8y ago
        my high school math teacher could - write perfectly on the board while looking at the class - write a complete sentence starting from both ends meeting perfectly in the middle
dannyw 8y ago
Ancient version of proof of work! Difficult to perform, quick to verify, completely useless.
billbrown 8y ago
If you want to see this dramatized, there's a French film called _Stupeur et tremblements_ (_Fear and Trembling_) that is very well done.
pwaai 8y ago
It reminds me of Japanese prisons. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJp9nKaO7c4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJp9nKaO7c4 I feel like this level of systematic dehumanization should be banned as it inflicts unnecessary suffering with no real benefit to society. but Japan has the lowest crime rates because the prosecution has a track record of 99% conviction rate. You might be thinking oh fuck thats fucked up but it actually deters Japanese citizens from deviating from the law. Because no matter what they are going to throw the book at you with only 1% chance of not going to jail. When it's that biased the return on criminal action at an individual level is negative. And as a result Japan has a thriving organized criminal economy and it makes sense, when you have a lot of disposable soldiers, don't need to pay severance (they do with their fingers), unregulated labor workforce, suddenly you've created an enormously profitable criminal enterprise that reaches into every aspect of Japanese society-pornography, brothels, stock market, celebrities, media.
- nickfromseattle 8y ago
  The U.S. has a similar rate in the federal court system, still lots of crime. I don't think it's the punishment.
  - shubb 8y ago
    One aspect could be crime recording. A 99% conviction rate says two things for me: - High risk of false positives - Only straight forward cases are being tried, so presumably police are memory holing cases that they can't clean up quickly.
- toomanybeersies 8y ago
  Japan's justice system isn't all it looks like on the surface. They have a habit of forcing confessions out of suspects [1], sexual assault and harassment is massively unreported, and murders are often ruled as suicides if there are no clear suspects. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-20810572 https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-20810572
- csa 8y ago
  This isn't quite the whole story. Typically (not always), if someone goes to prison, it is because of them using up many chances to avoid going -- or they did something particularly heinous. Japanese prisons are not flooded with minor drug violators like US prisons are. First, the police I've met in Japan are VERY willing to look the other way rather than convict someone on a serious-but-relatively-minor offense (e.g., drinking and driving while not "drunk"). I have also known them to handle delicate situations in very diplomatic ways (e.g., appropriate but definitely illegal street justice). The stories I have heard of people going to jail involved that person breaking the law repeatedly and with multiple warnings (usu. with accompanying letters they had to write saying that they would not continue to behave in a criminal way). In the more provincial areas (even the small cities), the police actually have a pretty good feel of what is going on in their towns -- the speed of gossip is impressive. If anyone is acting up, it would not be surprising for the police to find out and just go have a friendly talk with that person reminding them that doing $CRIME is, well, a crime that might have very unfortunate consequences. That discussion usually puts a lid on it. I will also add that for a very large portion of the population, the peer pressure to conform goes extremely far in discouraging people from doing things that would put them in prison. The idea of prison itself is just a foreign idea for most people. I haven not recently updated my reading on the Japanese criminal justice system (most of my knowledge is 10+ years old), but I don't recall reading much that made me feel like there were many prisoners were in prison unreasonably. A few were, but just a few, and completely different than the US where it's obvious that quite a few people are in prison for things like minor offenses, getting framed, not being able to afford decent representation, etc.
scruple 8y ago
> at the end of the day, your work product is checked for ~15 seconds to verify that you're not slacking and then shredded in front of your eyes. See you tomorrow. Wow, that is incredible (in a very negative / brutal sense). It's like forcing burnout on a person to motivate them to leave.