9 ms·

Texas researchers seek to redefine U.S. whiskey

42 points by petethomas 8y ago

bsg75 8y ago
Does the mash composition contribute that much to the flavor of a whiskey? Or, how much of the flavor can make it through distillation? I was under the impression that most flavor comes from the organic material present in aging barrels.
- kurthr 8y ago
  Yes, there are quite a few esters and acids that will hitch a ride with some of the alcohol and water molecules that make it up the column. This certainly depends on the type of still (eg plate vs alambic and continuous vs pot), but there are a lot of flavors transfered. The distiller's job is to choose which ones (eg at least remove the heads and tails). One easy example is apple brandy which has a very distinct nose. It's not until you multiple distill and charcoal filter that vodka loses its flavor (you can actually detect potato, if you care to).
  - kurthr 8y ago
    I should also mention that low pH (acidic) environment is important to the proportion of many flavors being transmitted. That means that distillers (looking for flavor) will often prefer lower alcohol but fully fermented brew, which usually means starting with lower sugar (less ripe fruit or less malted grains). Corn usually starts high sugar so I'm not sure about them.
- tptacek 8y ago
  The types of grains certainly do; rye, bourbon (corn), and un-peated scotch (barley) taste different. I don't know about the types of corn, though; the types of barley don't seem to make a big difference for scotch.
- drblast 8y ago
  I live near a small distillery that does tastings and tours. The mash composition is a huge component of the flavor, and it's a lot of fun to taste the different mashes pre-distillation, along with the final product. The percentage of a corn to rye makes a really big difference, but they even pay attention to the source of the grain they use. Also the new mash smell is the greatest thing in the world.
- jerrysievert 8y ago
  four roses produces single barrel bourbons - typically through their barrel select program, where you can taste a couple of different mash bills, but more important to the question: yeasts. you can taste the different yeast strains changing the end flavor. everything makes a bit of difference, if you're you're not trying to make neutral grain spirit.
- justin66 8y ago
  > mash composition This is called the "mash bill," by the way. (It matters enough that there's a commonly used term for it.)
intopieces 8y ago
What's the point of planting non-GMO corn? What impact do GMOs allegedly have on the final product?
- JumpCrisscross 8y ago
  > What's the point of planting non-GMO corn? Usually I would complain about the inanity of this process, but it’s whiskey. The process is the point. It’s a hedonistic venture and should be embraced as one.
- onionasgnio 8y ago
  GMO corn would misalign the whiskey's thetans and contaminate the meridians of the drinkers, leading to a subluxation of the quantum mechanical body.
coin 8y ago
> they will plant thousands of non-genetically modified seeds on a commercial farm to ramp up production Why is it relevant if the seed were bred using genetic engineering or conventional?
- inimino 8y ago
  Because a large part of the US market believes that GMO are dangerous or potentially unhealthy, and this is probably more common feeling in a traditional product like whiskey.
  - mc32 8y ago
    A bit ironic if the consumption of alcohol itself represents a greater health risk to its drinkers. TBH, I think it has more to do with the idea of being artisanal and “crafted” by tradespeople. Kind of the same idea as wine from organic grapes.
    - inimino 8y ago
      We've had a few thousand years to work out the health risks of alcohol. The health or environmental risks of GMOs are based on scientific predictions made in the last 50 years, rather than centuries of experience passed down through culture. That seems reason enough for a little more caution.
      - pstuart 8y ago
        Yep. ~88k deaths per tear in US due to alcohol: https://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/fact-sheets/alcohol-use.htm https://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/fact-sheets/alcohol-use.htm
        perl4ever 8y ago
        It doesn't make logical sense in this context to lump all the deaths from doing stupid things while extremely drunk in with the long term health effects, even if it's convenient rhetorically. People concerned with the nuances of fine whisky and the risks of GMOs are likely not the type who are getting blind drunk and winning Darwin awards on a Saturday night.
toomanybeersies 8y ago
Traditionally, alcoholic beverages were shaped by the environment around them. The reason that Scotch Whisky uses peat smoked malt was that there wasn't coal available for them to use instead. It was aged in used barrels for economic reasons, rather than taste. It's the same for beer, different styles of beer largely came about due to differences in water chemistry. It seems weird to try and artificially define American Whiskey by trying to force a terroir in the product using selective breeding. That's backwards from how the process has historically happened, it's artificial. The whole artisan American Whiskey market is bullshit anyway. Most "craft distilleries" just buy bulk white spirit or pre-aged spirit from a wholesaler [1], then finish it in their own barrels. The usually use smaller barrels too, to try an impart as much flavour in as short a time, leaving you with an unbalanced whiskey that just tastes like an oak barrel. Sometimes they even use tricks like artificially heating and cooling the ageing warehouse or using ultrasound to try and speed up the process. But you can't rush time. In fairness, it's not just American Whiskey that has this problem. It's luxury spirits as a market. Luxury alcohol is a marketing industry that sells alcohol. Vodka is especially egregious, where the bottle the spirit comes in is often more expensive than the contents. Only 10 of around 130 Scotch Whisky distilleries are independent, the rest owned by international conglomerates like Pernod Ricard. [1] https://www.thedailybeast.com/your-craft-whiskey-is-probably-from-a-factory-distillery-in-indiana https://www.thedailybeast.com/your-craft-whiskey-is-probably...
- im3w1l 8y ago
  I wonder if the endgame will be starting with something like everclear, adding whatever aromas you feel like, diluting it down to 80 proof and finally bottling it.
  - Stratoscope 8y ago
    Read about it here: http://makeityourown.com/ http://makeityourown.com/
  - toomanybeersies 8y ago
    That's largely what most homebrewers who make spirits do. You get 90% ethanol out out of the still, water it down to 40%, and add a bottle of whatever flavour you want. If you're drinking it neat, it's fairly obvious it's not the real thing, but if you're drinking it with coke or other mixers it's pretty passable, and not a bad deal at less than $5 per litre.

42 points by petethomas 8y ago

Does the mash composition contribute that much to the flavor of a whiskey? Or, how much of the flavor can make it through distillation? I was under the impression that most flavor comes from the organic material present in aging barrels.

kurthr 8y ago
Yes, there are quite a few esters and acids that will hitch a ride with some of the alcohol and water molecules that make it up the column. This certainly depends on the type of still (eg plate vs alambic and continuous vs pot), but there are a lot of flavors transfered. The distiller's job is to choose which ones (eg at least remove the heads and tails). One easy example is apple brandy which has a very distinct nose. It's not until you multiple distill and charcoal filter that vodka loses its flavor (you can actually detect potato, if you care to).
- kurthr 8y ago
  I should also mention that low pH (acidic) environment is important to the proportion of many flavors being transmitted. That means that distillers (looking for flavor) will often prefer lower alcohol but fully fermented brew, which usually means starting with lower sugar (less ripe fruit or less malted grains). Corn usually starts high sugar so I'm not sure about them.
tptacek 8y ago
The types of grains certainly do; rye, bourbon (corn), and un-peated scotch (barley) taste different. I don't know about the types of corn, though; the types of barley don't seem to make a big difference for scotch.
drblast 8y ago
I live near a small distillery that does tastings and tours. The mash composition is a huge component of the flavor, and it's a lot of fun to taste the different mashes pre-distillation, along with the final product. The percentage of a corn to rye makes a really big difference, but they even pay attention to the source of the grain they use. Also the new mash smell is the greatest thing in the world.
jerrysievert 8y ago
four roses produces single barrel bourbons - typically through their barrel select program, where you can taste a couple of different mash bills, but more important to the question: yeasts. you can taste the different yeast strains changing the end flavor. everything makes a bit of difference, if you're you're not trying to make neutral grain spirit.
justin66 8y ago
> mash composition This is called the "mash bill," by the way. (It matters enough that there's a commonly used term for it.)

intopieces 8y ago

What's the point of planting non-GMO corn? What impact do GMOs allegedly have on the final product?

JumpCrisscross 8y ago
> What's the point of planting non-GMO corn? Usually I would complain about the inanity of this process, but it’s whiskey. The process is the point. It’s a hedonistic venture and should be embraced as one.
onionasgnio 8y ago
GMO corn would misalign the whiskey's thetans and contaminate the meridians of the drinkers, leading to a subluxation of the quantum mechanical body.

coin 8y ago

> they will plant thousands of non-genetically modified seeds on a commercial farm to ramp up production Why is it relevant if the seed were bred using genetic engineering or conventional?

inimino 8y ago
Because a large part of the US market believes that GMO are dangerous or potentially unhealthy, and this is probably more common feeling in a traditional product like whiskey.
- mc32 8y ago
  A bit ironic if the consumption of alcohol itself represents a greater health risk to its drinkers. TBH, I think it has more to do with the idea of being artisanal and “crafted” by tradespeople. Kind of the same idea as wine from organic grapes.
  - inimino 8y ago
    We've had a few thousand years to work out the health risks of alcohol. The health or environmental risks of GMOs are based on scientific predictions made in the last 50 years, rather than centuries of experience passed down through culture. That seems reason enough for a little more caution.
    - pstuart 8y ago
      Yep. ~88k deaths per tear in US due to alcohol: https://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/fact-sheets/alcohol-use.htm https://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/fact-sheets/alcohol-use.htm
      - perl4ever 8y ago
        It doesn't make logical sense in this context to lump all the deaths from doing stupid things while extremely drunk in with the long term health effects, even if it's convenient rhetorically. People concerned with the nuances of fine whisky and the risks of GMOs are likely not the type who are getting blind drunk and winning Darwin awards on a Saturday night.

toomanybeersies 8y ago

Traditionally, alcoholic beverages were shaped by the environment around them. The reason that Scotch Whisky uses peat smoked malt was that there wasn't coal available for them to use instead. It was aged in used barrels for economic reasons, rather than taste. It's the same for beer, different styles of beer largely came about due to differences in water chemistry. It seems weird to try and artificially define American Whiskey by trying to force a terroir in the product using selective breeding. That's backwards from how the process has historically happened, it's artificial. The whole artisan American Whiskey market is bullshit anyway. Most "craft distilleries" just buy bulk white spirit or pre-aged spirit from a wholesaler [1], then finish it in their own barrels. The usually use smaller barrels too, to try an impart as much flavour in as short a time, leaving you with an unbalanced whiskey that just tastes like an oak barrel. Sometimes they even use tricks like artificially heating and cooling the ageing warehouse or using ultrasound to try and speed up the process. But you can't rush time. In fairness, it's not just American Whiskey that has this problem. It's luxury spirits as a market. Luxury alcohol is a marketing industry that sells alcohol. Vodka is especially egregious, where the bottle the spirit comes in is often more expensive than the contents. Only 10 of around 130 Scotch Whisky distilleries are independent, the rest owned by international conglomerates like Pernod Ricard. [1] https://www.thedailybeast.com/your-craft-whiskey-is-probably-from-a-factory-distillery-in-indiana https://www.thedailybeast.com/your-craft-whiskey-is-probably...

im3w1l 8y ago
I wonder if the endgame will be starting with something like everclear, adding whatever aromas you feel like, diluting it down to 80 proof and finally bottling it.
- Stratoscope 8y ago
  Read about it here: http://makeityourown.com/ http://makeityourown.com/
- toomanybeersies 8y ago
  That's largely what most homebrewers who make spirits do. You get 90% ethanol out out of the still, water it down to 40%, and add a bottle of whatever flavour you want. If you're drinking it neat, it's fairly obvious it's not the real thing, but if you're drinking it with coke or other mixers it's pretty passable, and not a bad deal at less than $5 per litre.