5 ms·

Lua really is a fantastic example of how to design and write an interpreter. The style and details can be debated, but the high-level design is expertly crafte

by oddity 8y ago

Lua really is a fantastic example of how to design and write an interpreter. The style and details can be debated, but the high-level design is expertly crafted and something I wish more interpreters would take inspiration from. I dislike the language, but the combination of its well-designed interpreter(s) and the general fat-free language design makes it the least shit of the popular scripting languages in my eyes. luajit is also a very well designed JIT compiler, but I wouldn't recommend it for beginners because of how dense it is. Understanding luajit is comparable to understanding something out of the demoscene because of how much gets squeezed out of every line of code.

TheAceOfHearts 8y ago
Do you have any suggestions for someone that doesn't know much about the subject but would be interested in learning more about it? Long-term I'd like to be able to dive into stuff like V8 and actually understand its internals.
- ufo 8y ago
  Mike pall wrote some posts in various mailing lists over the years that explain some of the things he did (but be aware that they only really scratch the surface) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11322060 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11322060 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2588696 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2588696 http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/3851 http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/3851 The thing that makes luajit hard to understand is a combination of two things. First, the jit compiler uses advanced techniques that aren't easy to learn just looking at the code. You really need to know a lot of compiler theory to just get started. Additionally, mike pall wrote a large chunk of luajit in assembly language and hand-optimized lots of things, which gives the code that dense demoscene feeling that was mentioned before. If you want to learn more about luajit one crucial thing would be learning about tracing jits for dynamic languages (luajit goes all in on tracing jit). The wikipedia article is pretty good. For papers make sure you read "Trace-based Just-in-Time Type Specialization for Dynamic Languages" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tracing_just-in-time_compilation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tracing_just-in-time_compilati... If you want to dive into a jit codebase one that might be interesting is the Higgs JIT. I haven't looked at the code itself very closely but I read Maxine's PhD thesis and her presentations on jit and I liked her approach of trying to make a jit that is as simple as possible. Most jits these days are massively complex beasts. https://pointersgonewild.com/higgs/ https://pointersgonewild.com/higgs/
  - TheAceOfHearts 8y ago
    Thanks for all the links, I'll be digging into em.
  - oddity 8y ago
    >Additionally, mike pall wrote a large chunk of luajit in assembly language and hand-optimized lots of things, which gives the code that dense demoscene feeling that was mentioned before. The use of assembly is actually very tame in luajit. I was actually referring more to things like the fact that it spits out native code by iterating backwards so it can do register allocation in reverse (simultaneously and with minimal memory footprint!). Because of a lot of neat details of how the SSA IR is laid out and stored and how tracing JITs work, this results in more optimal register allocation in a way that is actually very straightforward to implement. It's very, very clever and overall very clean with minimal code, but understanding why things are done in a particular way requires a lot of experience. The demoscene is similar: very neat 'hacks' that combine low-level programming knowledge with very deep domain knowledge motivated by the need to write code that is both fast and small.
- deleted 8y ago
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by oddity 8y ago

TheAceOfHearts 8y ago

Do you have any suggestions for someone that doesn't know much about the subject but would be interested in learning more about it? Long-term I'd like to be able to dive into stuff like V8 and actually understand its internals.

ufo 8y ago
Mike pall wrote some posts in various mailing lists over the years that explain some of the things he did (but be aware that they only really scratch the surface) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11322060 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11322060 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2588696 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2588696 http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/3851 http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/3851 The thing that makes luajit hard to understand is a combination of two things. First, the jit compiler uses advanced techniques that aren't easy to learn just looking at the code. You really need to know a lot of compiler theory to just get started. Additionally, mike pall wrote a large chunk of luajit in assembly language and hand-optimized lots of things, which gives the code that dense demoscene feeling that was mentioned before. If you want to learn more about luajit one crucial thing would be learning about tracing jits for dynamic languages (luajit goes all in on tracing jit). The wikipedia article is pretty good. For papers make sure you read "Trace-based Just-in-Time Type Specialization for Dynamic Languages" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tracing_just-in-time_compilation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tracing_just-in-time_compilati... If you want to dive into a jit codebase one that might be interesting is the Higgs JIT. I haven't looked at the code itself very closely but I read Maxine's PhD thesis and her presentations on jit and I liked her approach of trying to make a jit that is as simple as possible. Most jits these days are massively complex beasts. https://pointersgonewild.com/higgs/ https://pointersgonewild.com/higgs/
- TheAceOfHearts 8y ago
  Thanks for all the links, I'll be digging into em.
- oddity 8y ago
  >Additionally, mike pall wrote a large chunk of luajit in assembly language and hand-optimized lots of things, which gives the code that dense demoscene feeling that was mentioned before. The use of assembly is actually very tame in luajit. I was actually referring more to things like the fact that it spits out native code by iterating backwards so it can do register allocation in reverse (simultaneously and with minimal memory footprint!). Because of a lot of neat details of how the SSA IR is laid out and stored and how tracing JITs work, this results in more optimal register allocation in a way that is actually very straightforward to implement. It's very, very clever and overall very clean with minimal code, but understanding why things are done in a particular way requires a lot of experience. The demoscene is similar: very neat 'hacks' that combine low-level programming knowledge with very deep domain knowledge motivated by the need to write code that is both fast and small.
deleted 8y ago
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