5 ms·

Humans Are Turning Mammals More Nocturnal

116 points by adamnemecek 8y ago

jedberg 8y ago
Relatedly, we're screwing up the already nocturnal animals too. Street lights get mis-perceived as sunlight, keeping them in. We actually started fixing this by switching to sodium bulbs, which was better for humans too, but now with the push to LED, we're undoing the fix that we did, again hurting both the wildlife and ourselves in the process.
- icelancer 8y ago
  >> We actually started fixing this by switching to sodium bulbs, which was better for humans too, but now with the push to LED, we're undoing the fix that we did, again hurting both the wildlife and ourselves in the process. What's the tradeoff on electricity use, though?
  - jedberg 8y ago
    HPS uses slightly more energy than LED, but since the power comes from the grid, if you power it with "green energy" then it doesn't really matter pollution-wise, and cost-wise it takes a long time to recoup the cost of switching all the bulbs in energy savings. The more important reason to switch is that the LEDs give a whiter light, which improves driver reaction time at night. However, there have been no studies comparing if accidents have actually gone down in cities that switched to LED, which would in theory account for increased sleep deprivation due to more white light at night.
    - shalmanese 8y ago
      > if you power it with "green energy" then it doesn't really matter pollution-wise, and cost-wise it takes a long time to recoup the cost of switching all the bulbs in energy savings. It doesn't matter what energy source any individual application is using, it only matters what happens at the margin. For example, if a city switching to slightly more efficient lightbulbs allows a coal power plant to be mothballed one year earlier, then it saves an entire year of coal power emissions from happening. Furthermore, streetlights operate on a complete inverse power curve to solar, meaning that additional solar is very unlikely to benefit streetlight power.
  - 21 8y ago
    Cities look much better at night on white light. I doubt we will ever go back to yellow light.
    - Waterluvian 8y ago
      Thanks for sharing. I thought it was universally agreed that white light is awful compared to yellow light. I'll have to dig deeper into this.
    - jedberg 8y ago
      Yeah that's part of the problem. People care about how the city looks vs. the health of themselves and the creatures around them.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
    - oldcynic 8y ago
      Old fogies like myself will remember that France, and much of Europe, used to require yellow headlights. The idea being that the removal of blue light reduces the likelihood of dazzle, especially in rain and fog. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_yellow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_yellow
      - 21 8y ago
        But apparently they are much worse in clear weather, so the new EU regulation require white lights: > Whilst yellow light improves visibility in wet or foggy conditions, it can also be harder to see with yellow lights in clear conditions. As a result, many vehicles today use yellow lights only as fog lights. > White lights are the most popular colour for the headlights of today. In many countries, headlights are no longer allowed to be yellow and must be white in colour. European regulations, for example, require all new vehicles to be manufactured with white headlights.
        oldcynic 8y ago
- st26 8y ago
  Thanks for bringing this up! It can be addressed with warmer LED's, filtered LED, narrow-band LED... trouble is the bulk of the market is at 4K & 5K white balance, so that's the default choice to put in. The good news about LED is, due to more even color profile, they can use dramatically less lux, but that requires adjustment to lighting level too.
  - jedberg 8y ago
    > they can use dramatically less lux They can, but at least what I've seen around California is that they don't. The one outside my window is a good example. It was replaced with LED and now it's like a spotlight right into my window. I didn't even realize there was a light there when it was HPS.
    - jws 8y ago
      It varies, but a call to your local jurisdiction can get a shade put on a light. My city painted a segment of the nearby intersection’s diffuser black so it doesn’t shine in my eyes when I’m on my balcony.
      - pokemongoaway 8y ago
        Which city is this?
  - pokemongoaway 8y ago
    How would you create an LED with these properties that is equally efficient as the white light LEDs on the market? Geniunely curious.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- always_good 8y ago
  > we're screwing up the already nocturnal animals too Every night I look up at my exterior lights to admire the horde of geckos waiting patiently around each one for the onslaught of bugs to begin bumping into the lights. I always wondered how different the gecko vs bug population would be without night lights. I've always felt bad for bugs.
- corbpie 8y ago
  Surely animals learn and adapt. A possum wont spend its whole life in its hollow because the light pole nearby is making it believe daytime is 24hrs 7 days a week.
  - pdpi 8y ago
    Sure. It can come out while there’s (artificial) light out, which probably means that it’s exposed to predators who, in between artificial light and human activity, have moved their hours of activity into the later hours. Riskier behaviour means more chances to get themselves killed.
    - lurquer 8y ago
      But, that's incorrect. The safest place for a small mammal to be is where humans live. Humans do not tolerate large predators in their environment. In my semi-urban neighborhood, we have huge herds of deer lounging around all the front yards. Why? Easy food. And, a neighborhood full of very clever primates who have eradicated all the Bears, wolves, badgers, etc. PLUS these clever primates have domesticated dogs that chase off coyotes but, generally, leave the deer alone. I suspect you can find more wildlife per square mile in a rural neighborhood than you could in true wilderness.
xg15 8y ago
Not sure if this was studied here, but I wonder if it's really "humans" or if its humans of modern-day, industrialized, "western" culture. E.g., do indigenous populations have the same effect on animals?
- 21 8y ago
  I think it's more about human occupied area than modernity. There just isn't much space which doesn't have constant human presence through it.
  - jackcnreturns 8y ago
    You haven't been outside have you.
Kenji 8y ago
I recently thought about exactly that. If we turn species nocturnal by our daily presence. Funny to see this article pop up now.
perpetualcrayon 8y ago
Once technology allows us to more completely bridge the communication gap between humans and animals I think we'll realize that animals have been communicating amongst themselves in sophisticated ways for a long time and they won't have very nice things to say about us.
- KempFood 8y ago
  I don’t like the thought of yammering livestock. I prefer a gentle mooing. Who cares what my burger thinks?
- KMag 8y ago
  Perhaps you're right about cetaceans or octopi, but as far as terrestrial animals, I haven't seen any evidence that any of them are smarter than a young human child. What makes you think terrestrial animals are smarter than young children, or that something less intelligent than a young child has any coherent commentary?

116 points by adamnemecek 8y ago

Relatedly, we're screwing up the already nocturnal animals too. Street lights get mis-perceived as sunlight, keeping them in. We actually started fixing this by switching to sodium bulbs, which was better for humans too, but now with the push to LED, we're undoing the fix that we did, again hurting both the wildlife and ourselves in the process.

icelancer 8y ago
>> We actually started fixing this by switching to sodium bulbs, which was better for humans too, but now with the push to LED, we're undoing the fix that we did, again hurting both the wildlife and ourselves in the process. What's the tradeoff on electricity use, though?
- jedberg 8y ago
  HPS uses slightly more energy than LED, but since the power comes from the grid, if you power it with "green energy" then it doesn't really matter pollution-wise, and cost-wise it takes a long time to recoup the cost of switching all the bulbs in energy savings. The more important reason to switch is that the LEDs give a whiter light, which improves driver reaction time at night. However, there have been no studies comparing if accidents have actually gone down in cities that switched to LED, which would in theory account for increased sleep deprivation due to more white light at night.
  - shalmanese 8y ago
    > if you power it with "green energy" then it doesn't really matter pollution-wise, and cost-wise it takes a long time to recoup the cost of switching all the bulbs in energy savings. It doesn't matter what energy source any individual application is using, it only matters what happens at the margin. For example, if a city switching to slightly more efficient lightbulbs allows a coal power plant to be mothballed one year earlier, then it saves an entire year of coal power emissions from happening. Furthermore, streetlights operate on a complete inverse power curve to solar, meaning that additional solar is very unlikely to benefit streetlight power.
- 21 8y ago
  Cities look much better at night on white light. I doubt we will ever go back to yellow light.
  - Waterluvian 8y ago
    Thanks for sharing. I thought it was universally agreed that white light is awful compared to yellow light. I'll have to dig deeper into this.
  - jedberg 8y ago
    Yeah that's part of the problem. People care about how the city looks vs. the health of themselves and the creatures around them.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
  - oldcynic 8y ago
    Old fogies like myself will remember that France, and much of Europe, used to require yellow headlights. The idea being that the removal of blue light reduces the likelihood of dazzle, especially in rain and fog. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_yellow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_yellow
    - 21 8y ago
      But apparently they are much worse in clear weather, so the new EU regulation require white lights: > Whilst yellow light improves visibility in wet or foggy conditions, it can also be harder to see with yellow lights in clear conditions. As a result, many vehicles today use yellow lights only as fog lights. > White lights are the most popular colour for the headlights of today. In many countries, headlights are no longer allowed to be yellow and must be white in colour. European regulations, for example, require all new vehicles to be manufactured with white headlights.
      - oldcynic 8y ago
st26 8y ago
Thanks for bringing this up! It can be addressed with warmer LED's, filtered LED, narrow-band LED... trouble is the bulk of the market is at 4K & 5K white balance, so that's the default choice to put in. The good news about LED is, due to more even color profile, they can use dramatically less lux, but that requires adjustment to lighting level too.
- jedberg 8y ago
  > they can use dramatically less lux They can, but at least what I've seen around California is that they don't. The one outside my window is a good example. It was replaced with LED and now it's like a spotlight right into my window. I didn't even realize there was a light there when it was HPS.
  - jws 8y ago
    It varies, but a call to your local jurisdiction can get a shade put on a light. My city painted a segment of the nearby intersection’s diffuser black so it doesn’t shine in my eyes when I’m on my balcony.
    - pokemongoaway 8y ago
      Which city is this?
- pokemongoaway 8y ago
  How would you create an LED with these properties that is equally efficient as the white light LEDs on the market? Geniunely curious.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
always_good 8y ago
> we're screwing up the already nocturnal animals too Every night I look up at my exterior lights to admire the horde of geckos waiting patiently around each one for the onslaught of bugs to begin bumping into the lights. I always wondered how different the gecko vs bug population would be without night lights. I've always felt bad for bugs.
corbpie 8y ago
Surely animals learn and adapt. A possum wont spend its whole life in its hollow because the light pole nearby is making it believe daytime is 24hrs 7 days a week.
- pdpi 8y ago
  Sure. It can come out while there’s (artificial) light out, which probably means that it’s exposed to predators who, in between artificial light and human activity, have moved their hours of activity into the later hours. Riskier behaviour means more chances to get themselves killed.
  - lurquer 8y ago
    But, that's incorrect. The safest place for a small mammal to be is where humans live. Humans do not tolerate large predators in their environment. In my semi-urban neighborhood, we have huge herds of deer lounging around all the front yards. Why? Easy food. And, a neighborhood full of very clever primates who have eradicated all the Bears, wolves, badgers, etc. PLUS these clever primates have domesticated dogs that chase off coyotes but, generally, leave the deer alone. I suspect you can find more wildlife per square mile in a rural neighborhood than you could in true wilderness.

xg15 8y ago

Not sure if this was studied here, but I wonder if it's really "humans" or if its humans of modern-day, industrialized, "western" culture. E.g., do indigenous populations have the same effect on animals?

21 8y ago
I think it's more about human occupied area than modernity. There just isn't much space which doesn't have constant human presence through it.
- jackcnreturns 8y ago
  You haven't been outside have you.

Kenji 8y ago

I recently thought about exactly that. If we turn species nocturnal by our daily presence. Funny to see this article pop up now.

perpetualcrayon 8y ago

Once technology allows us to more completely bridge the communication gap between humans and animals I think we'll realize that animals have been communicating amongst themselves in sophisticated ways for a long time and they won't have very nice things to say about us.

KempFood 8y ago
I don’t like the thought of yammering livestock. I prefer a gentle mooing. Who cares what my burger thinks?
KMag 8y ago
Perhaps you're right about cetaceans or octopi, but as far as terrestrial animals, I haven't seen any evidence that any of them are smarter than a young human child. What makes you think terrestrial animals are smarter than young children, or that something less intelligent than a young child has any coherent commentary?