5 ms·

The patents don't really tell you whether the Theranos technology actually works. They cover small parts of the overall system - fluid handling, centrifuge conf

The patents don't really tell you whether the Theranos technology actually works. They cover small parts of the overall system - fluid handling, centrifuge configurations, software processes and so on. It's quite common for companies to use a mix of patents and trade secrets to protect their technology. Filing for patent protection is a tradeoff - you gain the exclusive right to use that invention for 20 years, but the invention becomes public knowledge. In many cases, that tradeoff isn't worthwhile. The fact that a set of patents don't add up to a working process is quite normal.

sorokod 8y ago
But are they required to deliver individually? If not I can imagine patents in the spirit of "fake it before you make it" which may be applied against someone else who "made it" while the patent holder still "fakes it" or not even trying to.
- trebligdivad 8y ago
  You're not required to proof anything; you can (and people often do) patent things that just seem good ideas at the time. If you work for big companies you're strongly encouraged to patent lots, and generally all you have to do is persuade some of your colleagues that it makes sense before then convincing the patent examiners it's new.
  - jdietrich 8y ago
    There are thousands of patents for perpetual motion machines. An invention must be novel, useful and non-obvious to be patentable, but it doesn't actually have to work. https://patents.google.com/?q="perpetual+motion" https://patents.google.com/?q="perpetual+motion"
    - Sharlin 8y ago
      It can’t be very useful if it cannot work even in principle though.
    - pjdemers 8y ago
      I thought perpetual motion machines claims were automatically denied. I know they were back in the 1970s when my dad worked at the patent office.
      - andybak 8y ago
        Yes but the interesting aspect of this is that they had to make a specific rule for this case. In the general case of "filing nonsense" the system fails.
      - Alex3917 8y ago
        > I thought perpetual motion machines claims were automatically denied. I think the current policy is they are only patentable if there is a working unit that runs for at least a year when left alone in the patent office.
  - keithpeter 8y ago
    Peer review strikes me (as a complete outsider to this world) as potentially quite a good filter. Were your colleagues critical or taking stuff on trust?
- jccooper 8y ago
  All the modern patent has to do is look plausible. It doesn't has to have been reduced to practice, or be practical, or work, or even obey the laws of physics. (Though they will catch baldly impossible things like perpetual motion.) It just has to be novel, and have the right paperwork.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- wmf 8y ago
  That's what Lemelson did with his submarine patents; it made him a lot of money.
- donbright 8y ago
  This actually happened to Theranos itself. In the book (Bad Blood by Caryiyou), there is this old genius medical guy who is in a family fued with Elizabeth's family, he hears about Theranos early on in their development, thinks his way through the machine they are probably building, and decides to file a patent on sending remote diagnostic information to doctors. The entire point of his patent was so that Theranos would have to pay him - and he did it purely because he didn't like Elizabeth's family. He never built anything, never made a single swipe of a soldering iron. She was able to defeat him by getting better lawyers. The book says she was paranoid, but also shows that this is kind of the environment she was in. This kind of abuse of the patent system is normalized within those vaunted halls of power and wealth. Big companies all have their portfolios of questionable patents and the lawyers sort it out in court. She wanted to build her portfolio just like anyone else in that situation. She was obsessed with Steve Jobs... people forget all the crazy patent lawsuits he was involved in, going back to the 80s.
  - roma1n 8y ago
    Carreyrou :) By the way, the book is really good. Should be suggested reading for anyone in the workforce or about to enter it.
- jwatte 8y ago
  Or, one source of patent troll fodder.
jpizzle 8y ago
Holmes figured out a pathway to violate the trust of old man wisdom. Sounds like she just fished the right old men. One of those that that’s incredibly mature in one aspect of life and threw all her effort in that direction naively ignoring the rest of of what “trust” actually facilitates. Poo poo for the men who were fished... don’t s*!t where you eat.
- whatshisface 8y ago
  Many of the board members of Theranos were retired military officials, which seems especially interesting in the context of how Theranos was originally planning on selling the technology that we now know to be non-working to the military. I recall that the sale was originally blocked by low-level military regulators. Holmes may not have scammed as many people as we thought - the window is open on the idea that some of her funding and support may have proceeded knowing that it was a ball of nothing, in the hope that it could be pushed forward anyway. [0]https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2018/03/14/theranos-board-mattis-kissinger-schultz-holmes.html https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2018/03/14/theranos... [1]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/12/02/internal-emails-reveal-concerns-about-theranoss-fda-compliance-date-back-years/?utm_term=.24622eef9ba3&noredirect=on https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/12/02/inter...
  - glenstein 8y ago
    I get the sense from reading the book that a lot of the fraud Holmes perpetrated was with the intent of buying time and pushing forward with a finalized product. It's still fraud, of course, but fraud with a vision I guess you could say.
    - 75dvtwin 8y ago
      'buying time' ... while raising capital from investors, for a fraudulent technology. Seems like a sort of ponzi scheme where the 'financial instrument' is a 'technology vision'. Would not be surprised if Holmes pay anything to the earlier investors, with the money of the new ones... Her life's work, in her words, was 'redefining the paradigm of diagnosis' ( https://youtu.be/5tEeSHy1x98?t=1m19s https://youtu.be/5tEeSHy1x98?t=1m19s ) Very 'Silicon Valey' lingo in her speech: 'Reinventing / Redefining / Reimagining XYZ'. With a portfolio of groundbreaking patents...

sorokod 8y ago

But are they required to deliver individually? If not I can imagine patents in the spirit of "fake it before you make it" which may be applied against someone else who "made it" while the patent holder still "fakes it" or not even trying to.

trebligdivad 8y ago
You're not required to proof anything; you can (and people often do) patent things that just seem good ideas at the time. If you work for big companies you're strongly encouraged to patent lots, and generally all you have to do is persuade some of your colleagues that it makes sense before then convincing the patent examiners it's new.
- jdietrich 8y ago
  There are thousands of patents for perpetual motion machines. An invention must be novel, useful and non-obvious to be patentable, but it doesn't actually have to work. https://patents.google.com/?q="perpetual+motion" https://patents.google.com/?q="perpetual+motion"
  - Sharlin 8y ago
    It can’t be very useful if it cannot work even in principle though.
  - pjdemers 8y ago
    I thought perpetual motion machines claims were automatically denied. I know they were back in the 1970s when my dad worked at the patent office.
    - andybak 8y ago
      Yes but the interesting aspect of this is that they had to make a specific rule for this case. In the general case of "filing nonsense" the system fails.
    - Alex3917 8y ago
      > I thought perpetual motion machines claims were automatically denied. I think the current policy is they are only patentable if there is a working unit that runs for at least a year when left alone in the patent office.
- keithpeter 8y ago
  Peer review strikes me (as a complete outsider to this world) as potentially quite a good filter. Were your colleagues critical or taking stuff on trust?
jccooper 8y ago
All the modern patent has to do is look plausible. It doesn't has to have been reduced to practice, or be practical, or work, or even obey the laws of physics. (Though they will catch baldly impossible things like perpetual motion.) It just has to be novel, and have the right paperwork.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
wmf 8y ago
That's what Lemelson did with his submarine patents; it made him a lot of money.
donbright 8y ago
This actually happened to Theranos itself. In the book (Bad Blood by Caryiyou), there is this old genius medical guy who is in a family fued with Elizabeth's family, he hears about Theranos early on in their development, thinks his way through the machine they are probably building, and decides to file a patent on sending remote diagnostic information to doctors. The entire point of his patent was so that Theranos would have to pay him - and he did it purely because he didn't like Elizabeth's family. He never built anything, never made a single swipe of a soldering iron. She was able to defeat him by getting better lawyers. The book says she was paranoid, but also shows that this is kind of the environment she was in. This kind of abuse of the patent system is normalized within those vaunted halls of power and wealth. Big companies all have their portfolios of questionable patents and the lawyers sort it out in court. She wanted to build her portfolio just like anyone else in that situation. She was obsessed with Steve Jobs... people forget all the crazy patent lawsuits he was involved in, going back to the 80s.
- roma1n 8y ago
  Carreyrou :) By the way, the book is really good. Should be suggested reading for anyone in the workforce or about to enter it.
jwatte 8y ago
Or, one source of patent troll fodder.

jpizzle 8y ago

Holmes figured out a pathway to violate the trust of old man wisdom. Sounds like she just fished the right old men. One of those that that’s incredibly mature in one aspect of life and threw all her effort in that direction naively ignoring the rest of of what “trust” actually facilitates. Poo poo for the men who were fished... don’t s*!t where you eat.

whatshisface 8y ago
Many of the board members of Theranos were retired military officials, which seems especially interesting in the context of how Theranos was originally planning on selling the technology that we now know to be non-working to the military. I recall that the sale was originally blocked by low-level military regulators. Holmes may not have scammed as many people as we thought - the window is open on the idea that some of her funding and support may have proceeded knowing that it was a ball of nothing, in the hope that it could be pushed forward anyway. [0]https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2018/03/14/theranos-board-mattis-kissinger-schultz-holmes.html https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2018/03/14/theranos... [1]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/12/02/internal-emails-reveal-concerns-about-theranoss-fda-compliance-date-back-years/?utm_term=.24622eef9ba3&noredirect=on https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/12/02/inter...
- glenstein 8y ago
  I get the sense from reading the book that a lot of the fraud Holmes perpetrated was with the intent of buying time and pushing forward with a finalized product. It's still fraud, of course, but fraud with a vision I guess you could say.
  - 75dvtwin 8y ago
    'buying time' ... while raising capital from investors, for a fraudulent technology. Seems like a sort of ponzi scheme where the 'financial instrument' is a 'technology vision'. Would not be surprised if Holmes pay anything to the earlier investors, with the money of the new ones... Her life's work, in her words, was 'redefining the paradigm of diagnosis' ( https://youtu.be/5tEeSHy1x98?t=1m19s https://youtu.be/5tEeSHy1x98?t=1m19s ) Very 'Silicon Valey' lingo in her speech: 'Reinventing / Redefining / Reimagining XYZ'. With a portfolio of groundbreaking patents...