6 ms·

Montana is an interesting state in general when it comes to laws. It's the only state where an engagement ring is an unconditional gift, for example. Every oth

by xxpor 8y ago

Montana is an interesting state in general when it comes to laws. It's the only state where an engagement ring is an unconditional gift, for example. Every other state the giver can sue the receiver to recover the ring if the engagement is broken off. Another example is that Montana is one of a few (the only?) state that doesn't have at-will employment. After a probationary period, if you fire someone it needs to be for cause.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
mieseratte 8y ago
> state that doesn't have at-will employment. After a probationary period, if you fire someone it needs to be for cause. Am I required to provide notice to quit, or otherwise risk some type of penalty or is this strictly in the employee's favor?
- ghaff 8y ago
  I believe it's strictly in the employee's favor. It comes from a specific law that Montana passed: "Wrongful Discharge from Employment Act" ADDED: Not sure why I would see that as a problem anyway. If you can't be walked out the door without another dime, why wouldn't you be fine with giving notice in the vast majority of cases?
  - astrodev 8y ago
    In the vast majority of cases, it doesn't matter. But I think it's ethically wrong for a company to have this power over an individual. Can't it lead to a situation where, for a few weeks, a person becomes an involuntary worker (i.e. a slave) - unless they negotiate or buy their own release? I live in Austria, arguably the most backward-looking rich Western country, and my agreement requires me to give a four-week notice. While my employer is such that this will never become an issue, I believe that the "at-will employment" is one of the many manifestations of the "American freedom" that also give the US its competitive edge.
    - walshemj 8y ago
      Having a decent notice period favors the employee much more than the employer and most employers offer PYLON (pay in liew of notice) and often half a months notice period will be taken up by annual leave And as some one living in Austria I thought you would have been acutely aware of the social status symbol of working in a professional role that has a long 3 - 6 month notice period.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
      What makes you say Australia is arguably the most backward-looking rich Western country?
      - DoreenMichele 8y ago
        They said Austria, not Australia. Two itty bitty letters difference, thousands of miles apart.
        TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
        Oh, oops, sorry. Thanks for pointing that out. Probably need more sleep.
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
    - mikeash 8y ago
      What happens if you tell them you quit effective immediately and stop coming in?
      - dnnrly 8y ago
        In the UK (as I understand it) you might become liable for the costs of replacing you until the end of your notice period, probably because of "breach of contract". But the business would have to be pretty shitty to do this and probably willing to lose all of that money again in legal fees. Mostly they would probably on refuse to give you a reference.
trendia 8y ago
> the giver can sue the receiver to recover the ring if the engagement is broken off. Which contradicts the whole idea of an engagement ring: > In the United States, until the Great Depression, a man who broke off a marriage engagement could be sued for breach of promise. Monetary damages included actual expenses incurred in preparing for the wedding, plus damages for emotional distress and loss of other marriage prospects. Damages were greatly increased if the woman had engaged in sexual intercourse with her fiancé.[32] Beginning in 1935, these laws were repealed or limited. However, the social and financial cost of a broken engagement was no less: marriage was the only financially sound option for most women, and if she was no longer a virgin, her prospects for a suitable future marriage were greatly decreased. The diamond engagement ring thus became a source of financial security for the woman. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engagement_ring#Purchase https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engagement_ring#Purchase
- stephengillie 8y ago
  > The diamond engagement ring thus became a source of financial security for the woman. Which is ironic, given the low resale value of diamonds. > In fact many jewelers won't buy a diamond back unless you've previously purchased that same diamond from them and have the documentation to prove it. Even then they'll typically only do a trade in, whereby you buy another higher priced diamond and trade your old diamond in. [0] [0] https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-08-21/ugly-truth-about-diamonds https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-08-21/ugly-truth-about-d...
  - rdsubhas 8y ago
    Yep, this (financial security) is why Indian marriages stick to gold and silver, because it has a defined market value.
    - xeromal 8y ago
      Kurdish as well. They tend to favor Indian gold for some reason.
Alex3917 8y ago
The obligatory Philip Greenspun link on Montana marriage laws: http://www.realworlddivorce.com/Montana http://www.realworlddivorce.com/Montana
mrfusion 8y ago
What about layoffs?
- ghaff 8y ago
  Those basically follow the federal law: https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/montana-layoff-laws.html https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/montana-layoff-laws.... i.e. companies are allowed to have layoffs with certain notification requirements.

by xxpor 8y ago

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

mieseratte 8y ago

> state that doesn't have at-will employment. After a probationary period, if you fire someone it needs to be for cause. Am I required to provide notice to quit, or otherwise risk some type of penalty or is this strictly in the employee's favor?

ghaff 8y ago
I believe it's strictly in the employee's favor. It comes from a specific law that Montana passed: "Wrongful Discharge from Employment Act" ADDED: Not sure why I would see that as a problem anyway. If you can't be walked out the door without another dime, why wouldn't you be fine with giving notice in the vast majority of cases?
- astrodev 8y ago
  In the vast majority of cases, it doesn't matter. But I think it's ethically wrong for a company to have this power over an individual. Can't it lead to a situation where, for a few weeks, a person becomes an involuntary worker (i.e. a slave) - unless they negotiate or buy their own release? I live in Austria, arguably the most backward-looking rich Western country, and my agreement requires me to give a four-week notice. While my employer is such that this will never become an issue, I believe that the "at-will employment" is one of the many manifestations of the "American freedom" that also give the US its competitive edge.
  - walshemj 8y ago
    Having a decent notice period favors the employee much more than the employer and most employers offer PYLON (pay in liew of notice) and often half a months notice period will be taken up by annual leave And as some one living in Austria I thought you would have been acutely aware of the social status symbol of working in a professional role that has a long 3 - 6 month notice period.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
    What makes you say Australia is arguably the most backward-looking rich Western country?
    - DoreenMichele 8y ago
      They said Austria, not Australia. Two itty bitty letters difference, thousands of miles apart.
      - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
        Oh, oops, sorry. Thanks for pointing that out. Probably need more sleep.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
  - mikeash 8y ago
    What happens if you tell them you quit effective immediately and stop coming in?
    - dnnrly 8y ago
      In the UK (as I understand it) you might become liable for the costs of replacing you until the end of your notice period, probably because of "breach of contract". But the business would have to be pretty shitty to do this and probably willing to lose all of that money again in legal fees. Mostly they would probably on refuse to give you a reference.

trendia 8y ago

> the giver can sue the receiver to recover the ring if the engagement is broken off. Which contradicts the whole idea of an engagement ring: > In the United States, until the Great Depression, a man who broke off a marriage engagement could be sued for breach of promise. Monetary damages included actual expenses incurred in preparing for the wedding, plus damages for emotional distress and loss of other marriage prospects. Damages were greatly increased if the woman had engaged in sexual intercourse with her fiancé.[32] Beginning in 1935, these laws were repealed or limited. However, the social and financial cost of a broken engagement was no less: marriage was the only financially sound option for most women, and if she was no longer a virgin, her prospects for a suitable future marriage were greatly decreased. The diamond engagement ring thus became a source of financial security for the woman. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engagement_ring#Purchase https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engagement_ring#Purchase

stephengillie 8y ago
> The diamond engagement ring thus became a source of financial security for the woman. Which is ironic, given the low resale value of diamonds. > In fact many jewelers won't buy a diamond back unless you've previously purchased that same diamond from them and have the documentation to prove it. Even then they'll typically only do a trade in, whereby you buy another higher priced diamond and trade your old diamond in. [0] [0] https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-08-21/ugly-truth-about-diamonds https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-08-21/ugly-truth-about-d...
- rdsubhas 8y ago
  Yep, this (financial security) is why Indian marriages stick to gold and silver, because it has a defined market value.
  - xeromal 8y ago
    Kurdish as well. They tend to favor Indian gold for some reason.

Alex3917 8y ago

The obligatory Philip Greenspun link on Montana marriage laws: http://www.realworlddivorce.com/Montana http://www.realworlddivorce.com/Montana

mrfusion 8y ago

What about layoffs?

ghaff 8y ago
Those basically follow the federal law: https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/montana-layoff-laws.html https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/montana-layoff-laws.... i.e. companies are allowed to have layoffs with certain notification requirements.