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I really, really want to hear the other side to this. That there is a serious counterfeiting problem is obvious to anyone who buys certain categories of produc

by lph 8y ago

I really, really want to hear the other side to this. That there is a serious counterfeiting problem is obvious to anyone who buys certain categories of products on Amazon. It is certainly obvious to Amazon itself. BUT Amazon is also a very customer focused company. So how has this not been solved? Critics will speculate that Amazon makes more money with this status quo, thus has little incentive to fix things. But that calculus doesn't make any sense---maybe in a very narrow balance sheet view, but Amazon has always taken a long view on these things, and there's no way the long term damage to their brand is worth whatever they make from sketchy third-party sellers. It doesn't add up. There must be something else factored in that I'm missing.

cimmanom 8y ago
I'm skeptical of your claim that Amazon is a customer-focused company. They're definitely a growth-focused company. At times in their history, and for certain aspects of the business, that has made them customer-focused. In many other regards (like making sure the customer gets the product they want) they're clearly not at all customer-focused. They won't address this until it begins to visibly impact their marketplace dominance.
- CodeWriter23 8y ago
  Amazon’s slogan is “The most customer-centric company on Earth”. It seems like customer care should be a top priority. But it’s not. Especially for customers who pay Amazon for marketing and logistical services.
  - csytan 8y ago
    Sellers are customers too, but I think that in this context it means the people who make purchases on Amazon.
- lph 8y ago
  Amazon's customer service is legendary. It's why this whole thing is such a mystery. If Comcast were doing something so bad for customers, nobody would be surprised.
  - dahdum 8y ago
    Legendary? Maybe in the past, but I’ve not seen anything special in the past few years. I’ve received counterfeits they won’t replace, only refund. USPS shipping ruins the 2 day guarantee, and ever fewer products seem to be guaranteed vs expected. The worst was ordering a Netflix gift card for my mother, email never arrived with the code, and support said they couldn’t do anything. No resend worked, they refused to refund because the system said “sent”, and couldn’t give the code directly because they have no access. Netflix support tried surprisingly hard to help track down the card from their own system, but Amazon had blocks of codes and they couldn’t identify. Escalated the issue twice to no avail, tried emailing the Bezos account and never heard a peep. My only option left is a chargeback, but then they are likely to just close my account permanently as a final f-you. Results of course may vary, but their service is garbage imo.
  - Fins 8y ago
    As long as it is something that can be handled by throwing customer a bone, it is OK (nothing outstanding, though). Anything else, and Amazon would happily lie to you and promise things they know they can't do. That might be legendary, but not in a good way.
unreal37 8y ago
Because consumers want lower prices. And consumers don't care that their anchor headphone hook is not made by the original manufacturer. If the product is quality, and the price is good, the consumer is happy. Period. And that's all that Amazon cares about.
troydavis 8y ago
While they're obviously customer-focused in the sense that they sell products people want, they're nowhere near "Earth's most customer-centric company" (their claim) or even universally very customer-centric. Amazon's UX dark patterns to upsell members to Prime are infamous, as are their paid shipping upsell UI. Those UIs aren't merely neutral between the customer and Amazon, they're deliberately deceptive. Even among very large tech companies, not that many have released UIs as deceptive as some of Amazon's. Try buying a medium-size or larger item without Prime to see some of them. They are absolutely fantastic at convincing some of the public (and a much smaller percentage of employees…) they're uniquely customer-centric.
tailrecursion 8y ago
I think Amazon is determined to solve a hard problem. Fraud and counterfeiting are very difficult problems to solve, and many buyers are happy to buy a knock off product. In a way, many buyers and sellers are cooperating to optimize one metric. Amazon has also recently pushed for more direct relationships with far east manufacturers, so that a branded product from Hamilton Beach now has to compete with eerily similar products that carry brands no one has heard of. Amazon seems determined to co-mingle its products, and to confront the problem of counterfeiting head on. One thing I would like to see is a feature that allows a buyer to "delete" or ignore a seller - I want Amazon to remember my "anti relationships" with sellers so I don't have to. Buying and selling is about relationships and reputations. Another observation about marketplaces is that many buyers don't want quality. Some are extremely selfish. Not because they're bad but because they're desperate either emotionally or financially. We all enjoy getting a good value but some people are consumed by their selfish needs and are not interested in building a healthy balanced society or encouraging quality products. A successful attack on counterfeits has to filter [the behavior/reviews of] some buyers as well as some sellers, because some people can't see past their own selfish needs. Finally, counterfeiting is an extreme form of re-implementing the designs of others. A large part of Free Software, for example, is historically rooted in re-implementing other people's designs (Linus & Unix, Stallman & LMI, Linus & Bitkeeper). It's not altogether destructive but if your only differentiator is that you're cheaper, then that's similar to Samsung's business. Making something that takes another's work and does something a little different with it, that's a lot better than a copy and also it's by definition not what we mean by "counterfeit". I think it's important to draw a distinction between someone who is competing with a possibly superior product and eroding a brand name (i.e. using a brand name as a descriptive word), versus someone who is making a product that is identical in appearance.
hollerith 8y ago
Someone on HN asserted that it is in Amazon's long-term interest by suppressing competition. Specifically, the arrangement they have now keeps prices lower than competitors can match.

by lph 8y ago

cimmanom 8y ago

I'm skeptical of your claim that Amazon is a customer-focused company. They're definitely a growth-focused company. At times in their history, and for certain aspects of the business, that has made them customer-focused. In many other regards (like making sure the customer gets the product they want) they're clearly not at all customer-focused. They won't address this until it begins to visibly impact their marketplace dominance.

CodeWriter23 8y ago
Amazon’s slogan is “The most customer-centric company on Earth”. It seems like customer care should be a top priority. But it’s not. Especially for customers who pay Amazon for marketing and logistical services.
- csytan 8y ago
  Sellers are customers too, but I think that in this context it means the people who make purchases on Amazon.
lph 8y ago
Amazon's customer service is legendary. It's why this whole thing is such a mystery. If Comcast were doing something so bad for customers, nobody would be surprised.
- dahdum 8y ago
  Legendary? Maybe in the past, but I’ve not seen anything special in the past few years. I’ve received counterfeits they won’t replace, only refund. USPS shipping ruins the 2 day guarantee, and ever fewer products seem to be guaranteed vs expected. The worst was ordering a Netflix gift card for my mother, email never arrived with the code, and support said they couldn’t do anything. No resend worked, they refused to refund because the system said “sent”, and couldn’t give the code directly because they have no access. Netflix support tried surprisingly hard to help track down the card from their own system, but Amazon had blocks of codes and they couldn’t identify. Escalated the issue twice to no avail, tried emailing the Bezos account and never heard a peep. My only option left is a chargeback, but then they are likely to just close my account permanently as a final f-you. Results of course may vary, but their service is garbage imo.
- Fins 8y ago
  As long as it is something that can be handled by throwing customer a bone, it is OK (nothing outstanding, though). Anything else, and Amazon would happily lie to you and promise things they know they can't do. That might be legendary, but not in a good way.

unreal37 8y ago

Because consumers want lower prices. And consumers don't care that their anchor headphone hook is not made by the original manufacturer. If the product is quality, and the price is good, the consumer is happy. Period. And that's all that Amazon cares about.

troydavis 8y ago

While they're obviously customer-focused in the sense that they sell products people want, they're nowhere near "Earth's most customer-centric company" (their claim) or even universally very customer-centric. Amazon's UX dark patterns to upsell members to Prime are infamous, as are their paid shipping upsell UI. Those UIs aren't merely neutral between the customer and Amazon, they're deliberately deceptive. Even among very large tech companies, not that many have released UIs as deceptive as some of Amazon's. Try buying a medium-size or larger item without Prime to see some of them. They are absolutely fantastic at convincing some of the public (and a much smaller percentage of employees…) they're uniquely customer-centric.

tailrecursion 8y ago

I think Amazon is determined to solve a hard problem. Fraud and counterfeiting are very difficult problems to solve, and many buyers are happy to buy a knock off product. In a way, many buyers and sellers are cooperating to optimize one metric. Amazon has also recently pushed for more direct relationships with far east manufacturers, so that a branded product from Hamilton Beach now has to compete with eerily similar products that carry brands no one has heard of. Amazon seems determined to co-mingle its products, and to confront the problem of counterfeiting head on. One thing I would like to see is a feature that allows a buyer to "delete" or ignore a seller - I want Amazon to remember my "anti relationships" with sellers so I don't have to. Buying and selling is about relationships and reputations. Another observation about marketplaces is that many buyers don't want quality. Some are extremely selfish. Not because they're bad but because they're desperate either emotionally or financially. We all enjoy getting a good value but some people are consumed by their selfish needs and are not interested in building a healthy balanced society or encouraging quality products. A successful attack on counterfeits has to filter [the behavior/reviews of] some buyers as well as some sellers, because some people can't see past their own selfish needs. Finally, counterfeiting is an extreme form of re-implementing the designs of others. A large part of Free Software, for example, is historically rooted in re-implementing other people's designs (Linus & Unix, Stallman & LMI, Linus & Bitkeeper). It's not altogether destructive but if your only differentiator is that you're cheaper, then that's similar to Samsung's business. Making something that takes another's work and does something a little different with it, that's a lot better than a copy and also it's by definition not what we mean by "counterfeit". I think it's important to draw a distinction between someone who is competing with a possibly superior product and eroding a brand name (i.e. using a brand name as a descriptive word), versus someone who is making a product that is identical in appearance.

hollerith 8y ago

Someone on HN asserted that it is in Amazon's long-term interest by suppressing competition. Specifically, the arrangement they have now keeps prices lower than competitors can match.