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Well, you know what he will say...the same thing everyone says. The same thing Google says about the rampant copyright theft their platform allows. The same t

Well, you know what he will say...the same thing everyone says. The same thing Google says about the rampant copyright theft their platform allows. The same thing Facebook says about bullying, fake news, and the like. The same thing Napster and PirateBay say about their services. The same thing Photoshop would say about people counterfeiting stuff using that. The same thing Bitcoin people (or for that matter, the Federal Reserve system) say about people using their coins for illegal purchases. The same thing the National Park Service says about people falling off of cliffs. These are all just platforms, and cannot reasonably be held responsible for the action of all their users all of the time. And I think any reasonable-minded person, and most judges, have to see it that way too. This "complicit" is a misuse of the English language, I think. Bezos is not in cahoots with the counterfeiters here. That is nonsense. People have been accultured to expect some kind of protection everywhere, all the time. Well, guess what? It's a big world and there are a lot of scammers out there, and nobody can protect you all the time. You have to learn how to protect yourself. Amazon's review system is one way to protect yourself. I think it isn't bad at all. Read what other people have to say about a product and the vendor before giving up your credit card info.

rubicon33 8y ago
Really the question is are they doing enough to stop it? The National Park Service, at least, put up guide wires and a warning sign on dangerous trails.
- XalvinX 8y ago
  Umm...not true. There is no rail on the edge of Half Dome..you can literally hang your feet off the edge, as I have done....and it was pretty cool.
  - lisper 8y ago
    At least on Half Dome it is hard to miss the fact that you are approaching the edge, and that this entails risk. Amazon is deliberately obscuring the risks by making it appear that products are vetted and/or endorsed, either by them or by customers, when in fact they are not. Even the review system, which you praised in your OP, is easily gamed.
    - XalvinX 8y ago
      A "FOAF" of mine tried to game the review system with a fairly intricate level of seperation and was busted for it... From just this experience (and from reading some stuff related to it on forums for independent authors trying to gain a foothold and get their name out there) I feel that Amazon is trying, and the "word on the street" is that they are increasing their efforts all the time. It will never be perfect though, and that's my point. You have to face facts...there is no way Amazon (or EBay or anyone else) can possibly look at every item being sold on their massive platform. Buyer beware.
      - lisper 8y ago
        > there is no way Amazon (or EBay or anyone else) can possibly look at every item being sold on their massive platform Amazon and Ebay are not comparable. What you say is true for Ebay, but not for Amazon. Amazon could vet its offerings just like every other retailer throughout history has done (that is, in fact, a big reason why retailers exist in the first place). The reason they don't is not because they can't but because it's too expensive. Their strategy is very deliberately to remove this piece of value that retailers normally add and hope nobody notices. It's working. :-(
- GCA10 8y ago
  Actually, when I was hiking in Zion a while back, the rangers said that putting up guide wires can lead to more bad outcomes, because people stop paying attention and assume that they're in a setting as safe as the sidewalks in a sleepy suburb. So the original analogies that got this thread going may be on target after all. It's a turbulent world out there, and we've all got to watch ourselves. I will say that Amazon's clothing offerings, especially in the "fulfilled by Amazon" sector, are turning out to be too dodgy for my tastes. Belts in particular are mis-sized in ways that even the reviews can't keep up with. Sometimes they're too long; sometimes they're too short; seldom do they fit. Amazon does have an emerging quality problem, especially in low-ticket electronics. If they're watching pure P&L metrics, the return rate and associated costs may look tolerable in a period of rapid sales growth. Not sure how much Amazon is tracking the fall-off in business from customers who had a bad experience. If we sputter a lot but keep buying, then the metrics won't really show a problem that needs correcting, will they?
inapis 8y ago
You’ve got a valid point. The only thing I cannot give Amazon a benefit of doubt for is when an item is sold under prime shipping but is commingled with the same items from different sellers and making it pure luck whether you receive a genuine item or a counterfeit. I’ve received counterfeit flash drives, headphones, batteries and chargers, toiletries and some skincare items - all sold by Amazon and shipped/fulfilled by Amazon. That’s pretty much textbook fraud.
- Symbiote 8y ago
  After the first, let alone the second counterfeit item, why did you spend another dollar at Amazon?!?!
  - inapis 8y ago
    I did not know that they were counterfeit as they arrived. It first came to my notice when using a skincare item. People on the interwebs pointed out about spelling mistakes on the packet which tipped me off. Every item I have listed above was found to be counterfeit in retrospective. I got a usb voltmeter to test the charger. Had to use f3 to test the flash drives (should’ve done them in the first place) The headphones took the longest to figure out. It was a mid range sennheiser headphones which passed the authenticity check. It was a gift so I didn’t really test it immediately after purchase. 18 months later I gave them a try and they sounded off. Got them replaced by sennheiser and boom - massive difference in sound quality. I still wonder if somehow sennheiser was in on the scam because there product verification process told me that the headphones were authentic. I have drastically reduced my purchasing on Amazon ever since I figured out the scale of counterfeit items being sold. That said there is some stuff which I can only buy on Amazon so can’t really cut them off.
- XalvinX 8y ago
  What did you do about it, and how did Amazon (and whoever else) respond to your problem? I think this is a very important question relating to whether Amazon is indeed "complicit" or not...
  - 8y ago
notahacker 8y ago
There's a bit of a difference between a platform company not being willing or able to rigorously monitor the behaviour of all their users and a retailer profiting from selling counterfeit goods and having a policy of intentionally continuing to profit from selling counterfeit goods in any jurisdiction the brand hasn't formalised the trademark after formal complaints...
raquo 8y ago
Amazon are complicit because they sell third party inventory while marketing it as "sold by and shipped from Amazon.com". That's deliberate deception.
baxtr 8y ago
I think that is a lame excuse. Of course it can be done, it’s just a matter of priorities and how many resources you’re willing to put in. To give you an example, nobody is saying that there are no more traffic fatalities or aviation accidents, but the numbers are declining even as traffic is increasing. Another example is Apple’s app store that seems to be well managed, even though the number of apps is absurdly high.
Hello71 8y ago
Ironically, despite complaining about the misuse of the word "complicit", you yourself misappropriate the word "theft". When someone watches a movie illegally they found via Google, the copyright owner is not forever prevented from using it or making money from it ever again.
CodeWriter23 8y ago
My mom’s company sells on Amazon with her own branding. Much of what she sells is her own design and manufacture, and some of it white label and in her own branded packaging. Her company and brand are in the Amazon Brand Registry, which is intended to help defend merchants from counterfeiting and other types of branding abuse. Her company does not sell wholesale and is definitely the only source for products under the company brand. When another party lists as “New”, counterfeit goods on her listings or Trademark-stuffs her brand name onto their listings, it should be quite simple to determine the other people are in the wrong and their listings should be deleted. Here’s what really happens. First email mom sends clearly mentions all pertinent facts and requests the takedown. Five or so email exchanges (and about 4 days) later, all spent re-answering some subset of questions that were answered by her initial message, Seller Support finally refers the case to Amazon Legal (aka "Seller Performance"). And even then it's hit or miss if Seller Performance will delete the infringing listing. She's even emailed jeff@amazon.com about all these shenanigans. So yeah, he's complicit.
- XalvinX 8y ago
  Wow. Well that does suck then. But just because you emailed someone named "jeff" over there hardly means he read it..that's a stretch.

rubicon33 8y ago

Really the question is are they doing enough to stop it? The National Park Service, at least, put up guide wires and a warning sign on dangerous trails.

XalvinX 8y ago
Umm...not true. There is no rail on the edge of Half Dome..you can literally hang your feet off the edge, as I have done....and it was pretty cool.
- lisper 8y ago
  At least on Half Dome it is hard to miss the fact that you are approaching the edge, and that this entails risk. Amazon is deliberately obscuring the risks by making it appear that products are vetted and/or endorsed, either by them or by customers, when in fact they are not. Even the review system, which you praised in your OP, is easily gamed.
  - XalvinX 8y ago
    A "FOAF" of mine tried to game the review system with a fairly intricate level of seperation and was busted for it... From just this experience (and from reading some stuff related to it on forums for independent authors trying to gain a foothold and get their name out there) I feel that Amazon is trying, and the "word on the street" is that they are increasing their efforts all the time. It will never be perfect though, and that's my point. You have to face facts...there is no way Amazon (or EBay or anyone else) can possibly look at every item being sold on their massive platform. Buyer beware.
    - lisper 8y ago
      > there is no way Amazon (or EBay or anyone else) can possibly look at every item being sold on their massive platform Amazon and Ebay are not comparable. What you say is true for Ebay, but not for Amazon. Amazon could vet its offerings just like every other retailer throughout history has done (that is, in fact, a big reason why retailers exist in the first place). The reason they don't is not because they can't but because it's too expensive. Their strategy is very deliberately to remove this piece of value that retailers normally add and hope nobody notices. It's working. :-(
GCA10 8y ago
Actually, when I was hiking in Zion a while back, the rangers said that putting up guide wires can lead to more bad outcomes, because people stop paying attention and assume that they're in a setting as safe as the sidewalks in a sleepy suburb. So the original analogies that got this thread going may be on target after all. It's a turbulent world out there, and we've all got to watch ourselves. I will say that Amazon's clothing offerings, especially in the "fulfilled by Amazon" sector, are turning out to be too dodgy for my tastes. Belts in particular are mis-sized in ways that even the reviews can't keep up with. Sometimes they're too long; sometimes they're too short; seldom do they fit. Amazon does have an emerging quality problem, especially in low-ticket electronics. If they're watching pure P&L metrics, the return rate and associated costs may look tolerable in a period of rapid sales growth. Not sure how much Amazon is tracking the fall-off in business from customers who had a bad experience. If we sputter a lot but keep buying, then the metrics won't really show a problem that needs correcting, will they?

inapis 8y ago

You’ve got a valid point. The only thing I cannot give Amazon a benefit of doubt for is when an item is sold under prime shipping but is commingled with the same items from different sellers and making it pure luck whether you receive a genuine item or a counterfeit. I’ve received counterfeit flash drives, headphones, batteries and chargers, toiletries and some skincare items - all sold by Amazon and shipped/fulfilled by Amazon. That’s pretty much textbook fraud.

Symbiote 8y ago
After the first, let alone the second counterfeit item, why did you spend another dollar at Amazon?!?!
- inapis 8y ago
  I did not know that they were counterfeit as they arrived. It first came to my notice when using a skincare item. People on the interwebs pointed out about spelling mistakes on the packet which tipped me off. Every item I have listed above was found to be counterfeit in retrospective. I got a usb voltmeter to test the charger. Had to use f3 to test the flash drives (should’ve done them in the first place) The headphones took the longest to figure out. It was a mid range sennheiser headphones which passed the authenticity check. It was a gift so I didn’t really test it immediately after purchase. 18 months later I gave them a try and they sounded off. Got them replaced by sennheiser and boom - massive difference in sound quality. I still wonder if somehow sennheiser was in on the scam because there product verification process told me that the headphones were authentic. I have drastically reduced my purchasing on Amazon ever since I figured out the scale of counterfeit items being sold. That said there is some stuff which I can only buy on Amazon so can’t really cut them off.
XalvinX 8y ago
What did you do about it, and how did Amazon (and whoever else) respond to your problem? I think this is a very important question relating to whether Amazon is indeed "complicit" or not...
- 8y ago

notahacker 8y ago

There's a bit of a difference between a platform company not being willing or able to rigorously monitor the behaviour of all their users and a retailer profiting from selling counterfeit goods and having a policy of intentionally continuing to profit from selling counterfeit goods in any jurisdiction the brand hasn't formalised the trademark after formal complaints...

raquo 8y ago

Amazon are complicit because they sell third party inventory while marketing it as "sold by and shipped from Amazon.com". That's deliberate deception.

baxtr 8y ago

I think that is a lame excuse. Of course it can be done, it’s just a matter of priorities and how many resources you’re willing to put in. To give you an example, nobody is saying that there are no more traffic fatalities or aviation accidents, but the numbers are declining even as traffic is increasing. Another example is Apple’s app store that seems to be well managed, even though the number of apps is absurdly high.

Hello71 8y ago

Ironically, despite complaining about the misuse of the word "complicit", you yourself misappropriate the word "theft". When someone watches a movie illegally they found via Google, the copyright owner is not forever prevented from using it or making money from it ever again.

CodeWriter23 8y ago

My mom’s company sells on Amazon with her own branding. Much of what she sells is her own design and manufacture, and some of it white label and in her own branded packaging. Her company and brand are in the Amazon Brand Registry, which is intended to help defend merchants from counterfeiting and other types of branding abuse. Her company does not sell wholesale and is definitely the only source for products under the company brand. When another party lists as “New”, counterfeit goods on her listings or Trademark-stuffs her brand name onto their listings, it should be quite simple to determine the other people are in the wrong and their listings should be deleted. Here’s what really happens. First email mom sends clearly mentions all pertinent facts and requests the takedown. Five or so email exchanges (and about 4 days) later, all spent re-answering some subset of questions that were answered by her initial message, Seller Support finally refers the case to Amazon Legal (aka "Seller Performance"). And even then it's hit or miss if Seller Performance will delete the infringing listing. She's even emailed jeff@amazon.com about all these shenanigans. So yeah, he's complicit.

XalvinX 8y ago
Wow. Well that does suck then. But just because you emailed someone named "jeff" over there hardly means he read it..that's a stretch.