5 ms·

Seems simple enough. Just feed mice roasted coffee beans as their only food (which should keep them alive, shouldn't it?) and see what happens. I'm pretty sur

Seems simple enough. Just feed mice roasted coffee beans as their only food (which should keep them alive, shouldn't it?) and see what happens. I'm pretty sure if you could find molecules in anything that, if extracted and injected in large quantities into a living organism's body would cause cancer. But here's the thing: living organisms have evolved to process whole foods. Although coffee could be seen as a sort of extract, it still is a natural product containing very complex and intricate combinations of compounds, not just one single, isolated chemical. This is why, for example, cocaine is so much worse than natives in the Andes chewing coca leaves, why whiskey is so much worse than alcohol-containing rotten fruit that even bears have been observed to enjoy, etc. etc. etc.

curiousgal 8y ago
>Seems simple enough. Just feed mice roasted coffee beans as their only food (which should keep them alive, shouldn't it?) and see what happens. Eh, it's not that simple. Whose to say cancer isn't caused by the interaction between coffee and, say, a digestive enzyme in our system or milk or some other factor?
- XalvinX 8y ago
  How would anyone ever prove such an interaction in isolation? There are probably millions of chemical compounds present in our bodies and foods and air and water, etc. That would lead to essentially infinite interactions, wouldn't it? Edit: added--> If what you say is considered, how are carcinogens tested for by the FDA and/or whoever else? What is considered "proof"? I cannot even begin to imagine a method that would be objective under such considerations.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    >How would anyone ever prove such an interaction in isolation? There are probably millions of chemical compounds present in our bodies and foods and air and water, etc. That would lead to essentially infinite interactions, wouldn't it? Fortunately you don't have to try "essentially infinite interactions", only those we are suspectful of.
KozmoNau7 8y ago
>"This is why, for example, cocaine is so much worse than natives in the Andes chewing coca leaves, why whiskey is so much worse than alcohol-containing rotten fruit that even bears have been observed to enjoy, etc. etc. etc." Not worse, just more concentrated and refined to be free from impurities. So in that sense, it's actually safer. But yes, it is easier to overdose on "the pure stuff". In the case of alcohol, getting rid of the naturally occurring methanol is important. Whisky etc. is just a lot more concentrated ethanol than you'd get from naturally fermented fruits, and it tastes a lot better. And trust me, the bears and other animals still get hangovers :-) Same with cocaine. You're simply getting a much stronger dose, so the effects are exaggerated, but the active compound itself is not inherently more dangerous. Outside of damage to blood vessels from long term use, the biggest danger comes from adulterants, which can be anything that is cheap and resembles a white powder. You never know what you'll get from a black market supplier.
- XalvinX 8y ago
  I don't know. I used cocaine for a pretty brief period in my life and the side effects were pretty severe...although mostly psychological, not so much physical. Perhaps when the leaves are chewed, the combination of various compounds has a different overall effect. Isn't that possible?
  - KozmoNau7 8y ago
    It is possible, but I am absolutely not an expert. When you chew the leaves, you get a lower dose, over a period of time. With cocaine, you get a super concentrated hit, all at once. To me (again, not an expert) that seems to be the biggest difference.
  - detritus 8y ago
    Cocaine is to coca leaves what heroin is to opium. Different beasts.
Fnoord 8y ago
> This is why, for example, cocaine is so much worse than natives in the Andes chewing coca leaves Its a little bit more complex than just that. Cocaine on the streets is mixed/grounded with other (heavier) elements such as glass or washing powder which yields the middleman (dealer) more profit. Since it is lucrative, competition does this as well, and the result is that finding quality cocaine is difficult.
- XalvinX 8y ago
  Glass and washing powder? Is anyone out there that evil? I mean, there are countless cheap and benign white powders that can be used.. I've heard some stories, but none as brutal as yours... just...wow.
  - blattimwind 8y ago
    I've seen articles claiming that cocaine stretched with fentanyl has surfaced.
    - megaman22 8y ago
      Yikes. I'd probably say that was laced, rather than stretched - stretching kind of implies dilution with inert material. Fetanyl is scary stuff
    - geezerjay 8y ago
      For the curious but lazy like me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fentanyl https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fentanyl
  - Fnoord 8y ago
    Oh yes, and those are just 2 examples (there are less nefarious shit being put into it as well). The Dutch TV program Spuiten & Slikken (about sex & drugs, for youth) covered this in their series. They bought cocaine from the streets and had it analysed in a lab. The outcome wasn't well, purity-wise, although the sample size was IIRC 3. In general, I recommend users of recreational drugs to test their drugs (especially easy with e.g. XTC/MDMA just buy one extra pill; see below). Here's an example of such a service in The Netherlands (in Dutch) [1]. English webpage (different info but about the same subject) here [2]. The latter is very useful for e.g. tourists in Amsterdam. EDIT: Would like to add the following from [3]: "In order to test your drug, you need to bring at least one whole pill (logo clearly visible), 100mg of powder, 1 blotter or 2mililitre of fluid" EDIT: Here's more info available as well [4] EDIT: And I'd also like to add that contaminated XTC/MDMA has been found; e.g. with PM(M)A or mCPP. When that happens en masse you usually hear about it in the Dutch media. [1] https://www.jellinek.nl/informatie-over-alcohol-drugs/drugs-test-service/ https://www.jellinek.nl/informatie-over-alcohol-drugs/drugs-... [2] https://www.jellinek.nl/english/tourists/#drugpotency https://www.jellinek.nl/english/tourists/#drugpotency [3] https://www.jellinek.nl/vraag-antwoord/why-do-they-test-drugs-the-netherlands-and-how-does-it-work/ https://www.jellinek.nl/vraag-antwoord/why-do-they-test-drug... [4] https://www.unity.nl/en/themas/testservice/ https://www.unity.nl/en/themas/testservice/
coldtea 8y ago
>Just feed mice roasted coffee beans as their only food (which should keep them alive, shouldn't it?) No, why should it? For one, it would lack tons of nutrients. >and see what happens Which easily could be a side-effect of only getting coffee beans and not other foods, and not of coffee-bean in itself.
- zepto 8y ago
  I think the parent comment was employing sarcasm.
exabrial 8y ago
Arsenic can be distilled from pokeweed. Anthrax is also completely natural. Lead was always used as a sweetener, also completely natural. It's really time we drop the marketing lingo around 'natural' being somehow superior.
- Fnoord 8y ago
  Arsenic trace elements are found in very low quantities in our food as well. That's OK, since its nowhere near LD50. Another example to add to your list is Botulinum toxin (aka Botox) which is produced by a bacterium; hence "natural". The "natural" hype is horrible. E-numbers are replaced by vague/different terms causing more complex ingredient lists while the point of them was to make it easier, and all that because of hype.

curiousgal 8y ago

>Seems simple enough. Just feed mice roasted coffee beans as their only food (which should keep them alive, shouldn't it?) and see what happens. Eh, it's not that simple. Whose to say cancer isn't caused by the interaction between coffee and, say, a digestive enzyme in our system or milk or some other factor?

XalvinX 8y ago
How would anyone ever prove such an interaction in isolation? There are probably millions of chemical compounds present in our bodies and foods and air and water, etc. That would lead to essentially infinite interactions, wouldn't it? Edit: added--> If what you say is considered, how are carcinogens tested for by the FDA and/or whoever else? What is considered "proof"? I cannot even begin to imagine a method that would be objective under such considerations.
- coldtea 8y ago
  >How would anyone ever prove such an interaction in isolation? There are probably millions of chemical compounds present in our bodies and foods and air and water, etc. That would lead to essentially infinite interactions, wouldn't it? Fortunately you don't have to try "essentially infinite interactions", only those we are suspectful of.

KozmoNau7 8y ago

>"This is why, for example, cocaine is so much worse than natives in the Andes chewing coca leaves, why whiskey is so much worse than alcohol-containing rotten fruit that even bears have been observed to enjoy, etc. etc. etc." Not worse, just more concentrated and refined to be free from impurities. So in that sense, it's actually safer. But yes, it is easier to overdose on "the pure stuff". In the case of alcohol, getting rid of the naturally occurring methanol is important. Whisky etc. is just a lot more concentrated ethanol than you'd get from naturally fermented fruits, and it tastes a lot better. And trust me, the bears and other animals still get hangovers :-) Same with cocaine. You're simply getting a much stronger dose, so the effects are exaggerated, but the active compound itself is not inherently more dangerous. Outside of damage to blood vessels from long term use, the biggest danger comes from adulterants, which can be anything that is cheap and resembles a white powder. You never know what you'll get from a black market supplier.

XalvinX 8y ago
I don't know. I used cocaine for a pretty brief period in my life and the side effects were pretty severe...although mostly psychological, not so much physical. Perhaps when the leaves are chewed, the combination of various compounds has a different overall effect. Isn't that possible?
- KozmoNau7 8y ago
  It is possible, but I am absolutely not an expert. When you chew the leaves, you get a lower dose, over a period of time. With cocaine, you get a super concentrated hit, all at once. To me (again, not an expert) that seems to be the biggest difference.
- detritus 8y ago
  Cocaine is to coca leaves what heroin is to opium. Different beasts.

Fnoord 8y ago

> This is why, for example, cocaine is so much worse than natives in the Andes chewing coca leaves Its a little bit more complex than just that. Cocaine on the streets is mixed/grounded with other (heavier) elements such as glass or washing powder which yields the middleman (dealer) more profit. Since it is lucrative, competition does this as well, and the result is that finding quality cocaine is difficult.

XalvinX 8y ago
Glass and washing powder? Is anyone out there that evil? I mean, there are countless cheap and benign white powders that can be used.. I've heard some stories, but none as brutal as yours... just...wow.
- blattimwind 8y ago
  I've seen articles claiming that cocaine stretched with fentanyl has surfaced.
  - megaman22 8y ago
    Yikes. I'd probably say that was laced, rather than stretched - stretching kind of implies dilution with inert material. Fetanyl is scary stuff
  - geezerjay 8y ago
    For the curious but lazy like me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fentanyl https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fentanyl
- Fnoord 8y ago
  Oh yes, and those are just 2 examples (there are less nefarious shit being put into it as well). The Dutch TV program Spuiten & Slikken (about sex & drugs, for youth) covered this in their series. They bought cocaine from the streets and had it analysed in a lab. The outcome wasn't well, purity-wise, although the sample size was IIRC 3. In general, I recommend users of recreational drugs to test their drugs (especially easy with e.g. XTC/MDMA just buy one extra pill; see below). Here's an example of such a service in The Netherlands (in Dutch) [1]. English webpage (different info but about the same subject) here [2]. The latter is very useful for e.g. tourists in Amsterdam. EDIT: Would like to add the following from [3]: "In order to test your drug, you need to bring at least one whole pill (logo clearly visible), 100mg of powder, 1 blotter or 2mililitre of fluid" EDIT: Here's more info available as well [4] EDIT: And I'd also like to add that contaminated XTC/MDMA has been found; e.g. with PM(M)A or mCPP. When that happens en masse you usually hear about it in the Dutch media. [1] https://www.jellinek.nl/informatie-over-alcohol-drugs/drugs-test-service/ https://www.jellinek.nl/informatie-over-alcohol-drugs/drugs-... [2] https://www.jellinek.nl/english/tourists/#drugpotency https://www.jellinek.nl/english/tourists/#drugpotency [3] https://www.jellinek.nl/vraag-antwoord/why-do-they-test-drugs-the-netherlands-and-how-does-it-work/ https://www.jellinek.nl/vraag-antwoord/why-do-they-test-drug... [4] https://www.unity.nl/en/themas/testservice/ https://www.unity.nl/en/themas/testservice/

coldtea 8y ago

>Just feed mice roasted coffee beans as their only food (which should keep them alive, shouldn't it?) No, why should it? For one, it would lack tons of nutrients. >and see what happens Which easily could be a side-effect of only getting coffee beans and not other foods, and not of coffee-bean in itself.

zepto 8y ago
I think the parent comment was employing sarcasm.

exabrial 8y ago

Arsenic can be distilled from pokeweed. Anthrax is also completely natural. Lead was always used as a sweetener, also completely natural. It's really time we drop the marketing lingo around 'natural' being somehow superior.

Fnoord 8y ago
Arsenic trace elements are found in very low quantities in our food as well. That's OK, since its nowhere near LD50. Another example to add to your list is Botulinum toxin (aka Botox) which is produced by a bacterium; hence "natural". The "natural" hype is horrible. E-numbers are replaced by vague/different terms causing more complex ingredient lists while the point of them was to make it easier, and all that because of hype.