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I’m not sure any kind of “x was worse than y” makes sense on that scale of evils. How can one possibly weigh the countless lives lost due to decisions made by b

I’m not sure any kind of “x was worse than y” makes sense on that scale of evils. How can one possibly weigh the countless lives lost due to decisions made by both? I think the only thing one can truly say is, both were terrible human beings, and hope we can detect and stop someone in the future from becoming such. Yet, I am not sure it is possible, the banality of evil is slow and unnoticeable until it is too late.

sverige 8y ago
My point is really that no one calls their opponents 'Stalin' or 'Commies' the same way people in America tend to call others 'Hitler' or 'Nazis,' which is surprising, given the enormity of the crimes against humanity committed by Stalin and the Russian Communists during roughly the same time. I posit that the root cause is due to the effects of propaganda. No one has really addressed that.
- aeontech 8y ago
  Oh, if you think "commie", "pinko", or "red" was not a dead-serious, job- or even life-threatening accusation in the past, you should read up on Red Scare, Hollywood Blacklist and McCarthyism. The question of why insult X versus insult Y survives and thrives in this day is certainly interesting. I think it's a combination of many factors - The enemy of my enemy is my friend, even if I don't like him very much. Ergo, if we were fighting Nazis together, by definition the Commies are not as bad. Considering the huge amount of media produced in all the time since the end of the war, in which the enemy is the safely defeated Nazis rather than still-potential-adversary Pinkos, it's probably safe to say that Nazi's are worse than Commies in absolute terms as far as the collective subconscious is concerned. - Nazis are generally seen as wishing to exterminate, subjugate or banish all people outside their narrowly accepted criteria. Commies maybe exterminate their own people for their own internal reasons, but don't really threaten our existence nearly as much - for a long time, it's "live and let live" more or less. Ergo, I am more scared of Nazis than Commies (though don't underestimate the fear of nuclear annihilation the seventies and eighties kids grew up in). - A lot of the fear of Commies was driven by disagreements over economic models, and fear of wealth loss by the "capitalist" class, obviously. That isn't really something very threatening to the average person, not on the instinctive level of "Nazis want to kill me because I exist". Those who lived through the red revolution and escaped it to the USA would have a much more visceral reaction to communism, but they would be a vanishing minority in the general population, I imagine. - Finally, Nazism/Fascism is in the conversation these days because it's really a thing, unlike communism. There aren't many people stridently fighting and believing in communist ideals, but there indeed are people who hold pretty clearly and openly fascist beliefs. So, when you see someone called fascist, it's not necessarily an insult but a statement of fact. Edit: I'm not defending Stalin or USSR, like I said in the parent comment, both leaders are indescribably horrible humans, in case that needs to be said.
- slededit 8y ago
  I think its more that the US was not directly at war with him, and thus the propaganda dollars were spent targeting Hitler.
- tptacek 8y ago
  An obvious problem here is that all for all practical purposes, all Nazis are "Hitlerists", but most modern Communists aren't Stalinists.
  - pvg 8y ago
    It's not really a naming problem.
    - tptacek 8y ago
      Is that what that argument says?
      - pvg 8y ago
        Which one? It's a dorm room stoner debate type question except unlike many of those, this one has a totally straightforward answer. One of these ideologies has transparently morally repugnant goals and the other one doesn't. You can get there without even having to mention Hitler or Stalin.
        tptacek 8y ago
        Yeah I think I was trying to say that, but didn't say it well. I'd like to get better at shooting this argument down, because it comes up a lot; most discussions about the evils of communism --- and I think communism is a very bad system! --- seem like proxies for "opposition to right wing politics is evil".
- craftyguy 8y ago
  > My point is really that no one calls their opponents 'Stalin' or 'Commies' "Commie" is not a great word to call folks in the US. Thougth weight is not as great as 'nazis', some "media" outlets still use the term.
- szemet 8y ago
  "...fascists ... they promised that they would wipe out a part of humanity and they did wipe out a part of humanity, while the Communists promised that everyone would be equal and did wipe out a part of humanity. The two things, we see, not the same, ..." (Péter Esterházy: A szavak csodálatos életéből / my rough translation)
- 8bitsrule 8y ago
  The (known) body count under Stalin by far outstrips Germany. But look at the history of rarely-mentioned Belarus during that era (I only recently did) ... a people caught between these two monsters ... and at Germany's 'Generalplan Ost'. WP says: "During that time, Germany destroyed 209 out of 290 cities in the republic, 85% of the republic's industry, and more than one million buildings.... The population of Belarus did not regain its pre-war level until 1971.... " A pox on both their houses. If Stalin is mentioned as a monster less often, it's probably because Russia was an ally ...

sverige 8y ago

My point is really that no one calls their opponents 'Stalin' or 'Commies' the same way people in America tend to call others 'Hitler' or 'Nazis,' which is surprising, given the enormity of the crimes against humanity committed by Stalin and the Russian Communists during roughly the same time. I posit that the root cause is due to the effects of propaganda. No one has really addressed that.

aeontech 8y ago
Oh, if you think "commie", "pinko", or "red" was not a dead-serious, job- or even life-threatening accusation in the past, you should read up on Red Scare, Hollywood Blacklist and McCarthyism. The question of why insult X versus insult Y survives and thrives in this day is certainly interesting. I think it's a combination of many factors - The enemy of my enemy is my friend, even if I don't like him very much. Ergo, if we were fighting Nazis together, by definition the Commies are not as bad. Considering the huge amount of media produced in all the time since the end of the war, in which the enemy is the safely defeated Nazis rather than still-potential-adversary Pinkos, it's probably safe to say that Nazi's are worse than Commies in absolute terms as far as the collective subconscious is concerned. - Nazis are generally seen as wishing to exterminate, subjugate or banish all people outside their narrowly accepted criteria. Commies maybe exterminate their own people for their own internal reasons, but don't really threaten our existence nearly as much - for a long time, it's "live and let live" more or less. Ergo, I am more scared of Nazis than Commies (though don't underestimate the fear of nuclear annihilation the seventies and eighties kids grew up in). - A lot of the fear of Commies was driven by disagreements over economic models, and fear of wealth loss by the "capitalist" class, obviously. That isn't really something very threatening to the average person, not on the instinctive level of "Nazis want to kill me because I exist". Those who lived through the red revolution and escaped it to the USA would have a much more visceral reaction to communism, but they would be a vanishing minority in the general population, I imagine. - Finally, Nazism/Fascism is in the conversation these days because it's really a thing, unlike communism. There aren't many people stridently fighting and believing in communist ideals, but there indeed are people who hold pretty clearly and openly fascist beliefs. So, when you see someone called fascist, it's not necessarily an insult but a statement of fact. Edit: I'm not defending Stalin or USSR, like I said in the parent comment, both leaders are indescribably horrible humans, in case that needs to be said.
slededit 8y ago
I think its more that the US was not directly at war with him, and thus the propaganda dollars were spent targeting Hitler.
tptacek 8y ago
An obvious problem here is that all for all practical purposes, all Nazis are "Hitlerists", but most modern Communists aren't Stalinists.
- pvg 8y ago
  It's not really a naming problem.
  - tptacek 8y ago
    Is that what that argument says?
    - pvg 8y ago
      Which one? It's a dorm room stoner debate type question except unlike many of those, this one has a totally straightforward answer. One of these ideologies has transparently morally repugnant goals and the other one doesn't. You can get there without even having to mention Hitler or Stalin.
      - tptacek 8y ago
        Yeah I think I was trying to say that, but didn't say it well. I'd like to get better at shooting this argument down, because it comes up a lot; most discussions about the evils of communism --- and I think communism is a very bad system! --- seem like proxies for "opposition to right wing politics is evil".
craftyguy 8y ago
> My point is really that no one calls their opponents 'Stalin' or 'Commies' "Commie" is not a great word to call folks in the US. Thougth weight is not as great as 'nazis', some "media" outlets still use the term.
szemet 8y ago
"...fascists ... they promised that they would wipe out a part of humanity and they did wipe out a part of humanity, while the Communists promised that everyone would be equal and did wipe out a part of humanity. The two things, we see, not the same, ..." (Péter Esterházy: A szavak csodálatos életéből / my rough translation)
8bitsrule 8y ago
The (known) body count under Stalin by far outstrips Germany. But look at the history of rarely-mentioned Belarus during that era (I only recently did) ... a people caught between these two monsters ... and at Germany's 'Generalplan Ost'. WP says: "During that time, Germany destroyed 209 out of 290 cities in the republic, 85% of the republic's industry, and more than one million buildings.... The population of Belarus did not regain its pre-war level until 1971.... " A pox on both their houses. If Stalin is mentioned as a monster less often, it's probably because Russia was an ally ...