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How can you say this with a straight face?! It's a fact that (some) women need to stay off work (bed-ridden before birth, in hospital after birth). It's also a

by tomp 8y ago

How can you say this with a straight face?! It's a fact that (some) women need to stay off work (bed-ridden before birth, in hospital after birth). It's also a fact that men don't need to. Obviously, men don't need to work and women don't need to take care of the kids (above and beyond what's biologically required of them), but (1) on average, outcomes will be influenced by underlying biological reality, and (2) it's a fantasy thinking that people can take time off work - e.g. a poor family with a newborn, you really think that any parent will take off more time than they absolutely need to, biologically? Finally (3) yeah there are possible social levers we can use to counter this biological reality and enforce equality of outcomes, but ultimately, we need to decide what we want - why is women working more better than women spending more time with the children? Personally, I look up to Netherlands, one of the happiest countries on Earth, where many women work just part-time.

ldp01 8y ago
> How can you say this with a straight face?! It's a fact that (some) women need to stay off work (bed-ridden before birth, in hospital after birth). It's also a fact that men don't need to. You're referring to a timescale of days which a woman will likely need to spend in hospital. I believe jschwartzi is referring to the weeks/months of maternity/paternity leave following the initial birth. There isn't a hard biological reason not to evenly share the load after the immediate medical concerns are completed.
- adrianN 8y ago
  My mother was bed-bound for several months during pregnancy. It's more common than you think.
  - whatshisface 8y ago
    What you're describing is a special medical scenario, not a universal burden shared by all women. Health problems can disable people of any gender.
YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago
>> It's a fact that (some) women need to stay off work (bed-ridden before birth, in hospital after birth). Note: some pregnant women need to stay off work, but all women are treated in the same way by their employers. That is unfair.
jschwartzi 8y ago
The only reason you're looking at it as a biological reality is that you're looking for ways for pregnancy to be disadvantageous in our society as our social customs and mores are today. You're assuming that the social structures and mores can't change. The reason it's not a biological disadvantage in my mind is because society doesn't have to be structured to disadvantage people because of that biology. Other posters have made the point that if men simply took the same time off as women do then that would weaken discrimination against pregnant women. And others have suggested social insurance for companies who have to fill temporary vacancies due to childbirth. So again, we've structured our society so that pregnancy is a disadvantage and it doesn't have to be. The disconnect is that you keep saying how things are and we keep telling you that things don't have to be this way.
- tomp 8y ago
  I’m actually thinking the other way round. If you want to change the society, you first need to know the (biological) truth instead of denying it. If we’re talking about salaried employees, clearly people who cannot work as many hours (pregnant women) will be less valuable than people who can work more (everybody else). You won’t change this reality by legislating that employers shouldn’t be realistic. On the other hand, you might nudge reality (i.e. make pregnant women worth comparatively more to employers) by e.g. awarding companies that hire pregnant women (i.e. a direct monetary payoff to offset the implicit loss of a less productive worker). But noone is talking about such solutions because they’re too busy lying with straight faces for their own political benefit.
daniel_software 8y ago
> Personally, I look up to Netherlands, one of the happiest countries on Earth, where many women work just part-time. As a Dutch person: this stereotype needs to stop. The Netherlands is a country like any other, with big problems and defenitely not the happiest people on earth. The Many women work part-time here because the tax is so high due to corruption its not rewarding to actually work. Last year suicide was the most common cause of death among people between 20 and 40 years. The Netherlands is the country where most drugs worldwide are made, transported and used. XTC is the biggest export of this country, which leads to high criminality and assassinations on the streets.
- tomp 8y ago
  Interesting, thanks! I was basing my opinion mainly on an Economist article (IIRC), great to hear a first-hand opinion!

by tomp 8y ago

ldp01 8y ago

> How can you say this with a straight face?! It's a fact that (some) women need to stay off work (bed-ridden before birth, in hospital after birth). It's also a fact that men don't need to. You're referring to a timescale of days which a woman will likely need to spend in hospital. I believe jschwartzi is referring to the weeks/months of maternity/paternity leave following the initial birth. There isn't a hard biological reason not to evenly share the load after the immediate medical concerns are completed.

adrianN 8y ago
My mother was bed-bound for several months during pregnancy. It's more common than you think.
- whatshisface 8y ago
  What you're describing is a special medical scenario, not a universal burden shared by all women. Health problems can disable people of any gender.

YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago

>> It's a fact that (some) women need to stay off work (bed-ridden before birth, in hospital after birth). Note: some pregnant women need to stay off work, but all women are treated in the same way by their employers. That is unfair.

jschwartzi 8y ago

The only reason you're looking at it as a biological reality is that you're looking for ways for pregnancy to be disadvantageous in our society as our social customs and mores are today. You're assuming that the social structures and mores can't change. The reason it's not a biological disadvantage in my mind is because society doesn't have to be structured to disadvantage people because of that biology. Other posters have made the point that if men simply took the same time off as women do then that would weaken discrimination against pregnant women. And others have suggested social insurance for companies who have to fill temporary vacancies due to childbirth. So again, we've structured our society so that pregnancy is a disadvantage and it doesn't have to be. The disconnect is that you keep saying how things are and we keep telling you that things don't have to be this way.

tomp 8y ago
I’m actually thinking the other way round. If you want to change the society, you first need to know the (biological) truth instead of denying it. If we’re talking about salaried employees, clearly people who cannot work as many hours (pregnant women) will be less valuable than people who can work more (everybody else). You won’t change this reality by legislating that employers shouldn’t be realistic. On the other hand, you might nudge reality (i.e. make pregnant women worth comparatively more to employers) by e.g. awarding companies that hire pregnant women (i.e. a direct monetary payoff to offset the implicit loss of a less productive worker). But noone is talking about such solutions because they’re too busy lying with straight faces for their own political benefit.

daniel_software 8y ago

> Personally, I look up to Netherlands, one of the happiest countries on Earth, where many women work just part-time. As a Dutch person: this stereotype needs to stop. The Netherlands is a country like any other, with big problems and defenitely not the happiest people on earth. The Many women work part-time here because the tax is so high due to corruption its not rewarding to actually work. Last year suicide was the most common cause of death among people between 20 and 40 years. The Netherlands is the country where most drugs worldwide are made, transported and used. XTC is the biggest export of this country, which leads to high criminality and assassinations on the streets.

tomp 8y ago
Interesting, thanks! I was basing my opinion mainly on an Economist article (IIRC), great to hear a first-hand opinion!