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I'm really surprised by the number of comments here that support this kind of discrimination. I thought we were better than this.

JustSomeNobody 8y ago
I'm not. Mention women and work/tech and you'll always see the dark side of HN.
stevenwoo 8y ago
It should be expected - the high number of comments that regularly showed up in support of Damore's scientific (in the sense of being in the ballpark and selectively referencing some social science work) arguments in his internal post that got him fired when that was a hot topic was pretty disappointing.
- ryanobjc 8y ago
  "scientific" might be a better way. I am continually disappointed at people who use the summary of a scientific article to prop up their justification, along with what I call "the world is a binary logic puzzle" fallacy. For example, a lot of arguments positioned nature vs nurture. It's not a simplistic blend of this or that, or even as simple as "trait X is DNA and trait Y is societal" -- if you learned anything about biology the sheer adaptability of the human body should be it. Don't forget that every single study hypothesizes a model, then attempts to build evidence in support of it. All models are wrong, some are occasionally useful. I've been extremely disappointed in the 'bay area rationalist' community with their response to that memo. It's really given me an eye opening view on the limitations of so-called "rationality" as they practiced it.
syrrim 8y ago
Ah yes, because this problem is easy, and the only reason it hasn't been solved is because of neanderthals running businesses.
randyrand 8y ago
It's not so clear cut. The arguments for this type of discrimination also make logical sense. Morality is pretty subjective, and peoples goals for society are very different.
ryanobjc 8y ago
I am not surprised. Hackernews is filled with entirely too many 20-something boys. I've been getting fairly disappointed with this place for several years now. Sadly the rest of the internet is even worse somehow!
APORWEVNAOEN 8y ago
You will win more people to your cause without insulting the people you are convincing to open their wallets! Many of the great disagreements in the world come from one side considering only the 'normative' view, and one side considering the 'positive' view. The normative view (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normative https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normative) is when we look at how things ought to be. The positive view (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_economics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_economics) is when you look at what actually happens. In order for people to come together and agree, you have to convince them on both levels. Consider abortion. The normative position is that "no fetus/baby should ever be aborted". The positive position is that illegal abortions are dangerous, and will happen anyway. In addition, making the topic taboo reduces contraception use, which is one of the few things that actually reduces abortions. The normative position on this issue is that discrimination based on pregnancy is unethical, and we are bad for even discussing the issue. The positive position is that putting the burden of paid leave on the employer INCREASES the incentive to discriminate against women of childbearing age. Therefore, we should avoid setting up a system where there are huge incentives to discriminate. If we want to reduce discrimination, we should require a small income tax (it'd only need to be like 0.5%), and have the government cover salaries during paid maternity leave.

JustSomeNobody 8y ago

I'm not. Mention women and work/tech and you'll always see the dark side of HN.

stevenwoo 8y ago

It should be expected - the high number of comments that regularly showed up in support of Damore's scientific (in the sense of being in the ballpark and selectively referencing some social science work) arguments in his internal post that got him fired when that was a hot topic was pretty disappointing.

ryanobjc 8y ago
"scientific" might be a better way. I am continually disappointed at people who use the summary of a scientific article to prop up their justification, along with what I call "the world is a binary logic puzzle" fallacy. For example, a lot of arguments positioned nature vs nurture. It's not a simplistic blend of this or that, or even as simple as "trait X is DNA and trait Y is societal" -- if you learned anything about biology the sheer adaptability of the human body should be it. Don't forget that every single study hypothesizes a model, then attempts to build evidence in support of it. All models are wrong, some are occasionally useful. I've been extremely disappointed in the 'bay area rationalist' community with their response to that memo. It's really given me an eye opening view on the limitations of so-called "rationality" as they practiced it.

syrrim 8y ago

Ah yes, because this problem is easy, and the only reason it hasn't been solved is because of neanderthals running businesses.

randyrand 8y ago

It's not so clear cut. The arguments for this type of discrimination also make logical sense. Morality is pretty subjective, and peoples goals for society are very different.

ryanobjc 8y ago

I am not surprised. Hackernews is filled with entirely too many 20-something boys. I've been getting fairly disappointed with this place for several years now. Sadly the rest of the internet is even worse somehow!

APORWEVNAOEN 8y ago

You will win more people to your cause without insulting the people you are convincing to open their wallets! Many of the great disagreements in the world come from one side considering only the 'normative' view, and one side considering the 'positive' view. The normative view (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normative https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normative) is when we look at how things ought to be. The positive view (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_economics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_economics) is when you look at what actually happens. In order for people to come together and agree, you have to convince them on both levels. Consider abortion. The normative position is that "no fetus/baby should ever be aborted". The positive position is that illegal abortions are dangerous, and will happen anyway. In addition, making the topic taboo reduces contraception use, which is one of the few things that actually reduces abortions. The normative position on this issue is that discrimination based on pregnancy is unethical, and we are bad for even discussing the issue. The positive position is that putting the burden of paid leave on the employer INCREASES the incentive to discriminate against women of childbearing age. Therefore, we should avoid setting up a system where there are huge incentives to discriminate. If we want to reduce discrimination, we should require a small income tax (it'd only need to be like 0.5%), and have the government cover salaries during paid maternity leave.