4 ms·

Ah yes, fluffy pablum from the man who stared in Expelled, the movie about why big science is a big conspiracy to keep down THE TRUTH about intelligent design.

by motoko 19y ago

palish 19y ago
Are his words any less valid because of that?
- trevelyan 19y ago
  Yes. It isn't exactly a challenge to find great artists and writers who worked prodigiously through their lives and remained poor. I'm sure Vincent van Gogh appreciates Stein's patronizing explanation of how the world works though.
  - sark 19y ago
    true, many great people worked hard throughout their lives and still never achieved success in their lifetime. But on the other hand I can't think of a single great personality who made it WITHOUT real hardwork.
    - Tichy 19y ago
      Maybe (I am not a historian). But it is a trivial statement that working harder is the road to success. Also, perhaps as a 30 year old you should hang out in bars at times nevertheless. What is he supposed to write about? Still - this work harder thing is like the dieting tips in women's magazines. We've all heard it about 1000 times before, but somehow we still need to be reminded of it from time to time.
      - ArcticCelt 19y ago
        >But it is a trivial statement that working harder is the road to success. My preferred despair poster explain perfectly your statement. http://www.despair.com/incompetence.html http://www.despair.com/incompetence.html
    - hacklite 19y ago
      Well, "great personality" is perhaps demanding a bit much. But a lot of people have "made it" without hard work. They get by on their looks, or their parents' connections, or ride someone else's coattails. How much work did Paul Allen put in relative to his net worth? Or YouTube's third founder? Or most investors -- their money does the work, which can return disproportionate rewards. Sure, Steve Jobs was instrumental in starting Apple, but the amount of work he did to get that first hundred million was tiny by comparison. A lot of salespeople hustle and work just as hard -- just in less effective directions. Lots of middle-aged maids from Guatemala work harder. Not to mention the sheer luck of knowing Woz in the first place. Or the fact that Jobs did it because he was interested in computers at just the right time and place. A lot of people follow their interests but the industry isn't some gigantic wave. Plus some things come naturally to people and it isn't "hard". Woz designed the Apple II mostly at night while he was working at HP. Hard for him would have been doing all the stuff Jobs did -- like talking to people! Some people not only socialize easily, it's hard for them NOT to socialize. A lot of the successes just do what they WANT do, they don't "try hard" to make themselves do something. Bill Gates just loved running his own software company. He could have retired years and years ago, but he wasn't in it to make money in order to do something else. He'd rather run Microsoft than sit on a beach sipping umbrella drinks! I would venture to guess that most well-known successes just did what came naturally. They didn't have to push themselves, in the way that when you're angry you don't have to push yourself to shout. You just feel a certain way and it's hard not to go along with it. Probably most of the confusion and inertia here is because people know what they don't want to do (work some sucky job for 30 years), but not what they do want to do. I think the question isn't "what would you do if you ALREADY HAD millions of dollars", but what would you do if you didn't have to worry about being broke. If all the basics were covered, but no luxuries (like having your own swell bachelor pad), and you were free to pursue whatever type of enterprise you wanted.
- rms 19y ago
  Yes. I think we as educated supporters of evolution should not support worthless, general writing from someone doing an enormous disservice in America. Ben Stein is the worse kind of troll. I hope the media ostracizes him and I expect they will. He has completely ruined his legacy with his appearance in Expelled. Though he can probably make good money doing speaking jobs to fundies.
  - palish 19y ago
    Words have value regardless of who said them. It is unfortunate that not everyone respects that. Personally, I until I turned 18 I was incredibly frustrated time and time again because people did not take me seriously, as they would an adult. It wasn't because of what I was saying, but because of who I was: a child. So while I wholeheartedly disagree with Mr. Stein's political views, I stand by the notion that a person can say powerful words regardless of who they are.
    - rms 19y ago
      Keep in mind that Ben Stein's stance on evolution is not a political view. He is manipulating people into rejecting scientific fact. It is a shame people don't take children seriously, but it is not a shame that Ben Stein is going to be blacklisted by Hollywood. Ben Stein may say some valuable things in the future and I don't completely dismiss everything he says as wrong -- I just do not care what the man has to say anymore.
chaostheory 19y ago
I don't agree with 100% with Ben Stein on everything (ex his new movie), but research does back his article (old YC post): http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg19125691.300 http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg19125691.300 "It's complicated explaining how genius or expertise is created and why it's so rare. But it isn't magic, and it isn't born. These people don't necessarily have an especially high IQ... And the one thing they always have is this incredible investment of effort."
run4yourlives 19y ago
One misguided view or incorrect theory does not a fool make.
- doug_m 19y ago
  right but intelligent design is not just a misguided view, if its allowed to propagate its going to hold back scientific progress for ours and future generations so it deserves to follow educatated/intelligent guys like this around with them.
  - run4yourlives 19y ago
    ID is basically an American phenomena. (oh, and maybe in the middle east too). Most of the rest of the world is pretty much settled on this topic.
    - mtts 19y ago
      You'd think that, but about three years ago the Dutch minister of education (Maria van der Hoeven) suggested ID should be taught in schools as well. I was flabbergasted.
- rms 19y ago
  Intelligent design is not a theory. It is a direct contradiction to scientific fact. It does not deserve to ever be mentioned in the same sentence as evolution. I'm fine if Ben Stein believes this individually but what offends me is his desire to spread his lies.
  - run4yourlives 19y ago
    > I'm fine if Ben Stein believes this individually but what offends me is his desire to spread his lies. Well, that's democracy for you. If you could stop everyone who you thought was spreading ignorance from sharing/convincing others of their views, you'd be living someplace else.
lvecsey 19y ago
Its not that theres a conspiracy its just that sometimes when you have a structure in place its hard for it to change or improve. Does the US government even have a group of people working on just that topic? Surely the three main branches of government can't be the final word. Alan Kay talks about glorious cathedral structures in Smalltalk and a similar structure has set in with science, where researchers are careful with how they write their papers to the point where a mis step could have them falling from the rafters, career wise.
ArcticCelt 19y ago
I agree with you but what he said just make sense and many start up wana bee need to hear it. It almost hurts to have to agree with someone like that but the content of that article is still valid.

Ah yes, fluffy pablum from the man who stared in Expelled, the movie about why big science is a big conspiracy to keep down THE TRUTH about intelligent design.

by motoko 19y ago

Ah yes, fluffy pablum from the man who stared in Expelled, the movie about why big science is a big conspiracy to keep down THE TRUTH about intelligent design.

palish 19y ago

Are his words any less valid because of that?

trevelyan 19y ago
Yes. It isn't exactly a challenge to find great artists and writers who worked prodigiously through their lives and remained poor. I'm sure Vincent van Gogh appreciates Stein's patronizing explanation of how the world works though.
- sark 19y ago
  true, many great people worked hard throughout their lives and still never achieved success in their lifetime. But on the other hand I can't think of a single great personality who made it WITHOUT real hardwork.
  - Tichy 19y ago
    Maybe (I am not a historian). But it is a trivial statement that working harder is the road to success. Also, perhaps as a 30 year old you should hang out in bars at times nevertheless. What is he supposed to write about? Still - this work harder thing is like the dieting tips in women's magazines. We've all heard it about 1000 times before, but somehow we still need to be reminded of it from time to time.
    - ArcticCelt 19y ago
      >But it is a trivial statement that working harder is the road to success. My preferred despair poster explain perfectly your statement. http://www.despair.com/incompetence.html http://www.despair.com/incompetence.html
  - hacklite 19y ago
    Well, "great personality" is perhaps demanding a bit much. But a lot of people have "made it" without hard work. They get by on their looks, or their parents' connections, or ride someone else's coattails. How much work did Paul Allen put in relative to his net worth? Or YouTube's third founder? Or most investors -- their money does the work, which can return disproportionate rewards. Sure, Steve Jobs was instrumental in starting Apple, but the amount of work he did to get that first hundred million was tiny by comparison. A lot of salespeople hustle and work just as hard -- just in less effective directions. Lots of middle-aged maids from Guatemala work harder. Not to mention the sheer luck of knowing Woz in the first place. Or the fact that Jobs did it because he was interested in computers at just the right time and place. A lot of people follow their interests but the industry isn't some gigantic wave. Plus some things come naturally to people and it isn't "hard". Woz designed the Apple II mostly at night while he was working at HP. Hard for him would have been doing all the stuff Jobs did -- like talking to people! Some people not only socialize easily, it's hard for them NOT to socialize. A lot of the successes just do what they WANT do, they don't "try hard" to make themselves do something. Bill Gates just loved running his own software company. He could have retired years and years ago, but he wasn't in it to make money in order to do something else. He'd rather run Microsoft than sit on a beach sipping umbrella drinks! I would venture to guess that most well-known successes just did what came naturally. They didn't have to push themselves, in the way that when you're angry you don't have to push yourself to shout. You just feel a certain way and it's hard not to go along with it. Probably most of the confusion and inertia here is because people know what they don't want to do (work some sucky job for 30 years), but not what they do want to do. I think the question isn't "what would you do if you ALREADY HAD millions of dollars", but what would you do if you didn't have to worry about being broke. If all the basics were covered, but no luxuries (like having your own swell bachelor pad), and you were free to pursue whatever type of enterprise you wanted.
rms 19y ago
Yes. I think we as educated supporters of evolution should not support worthless, general writing from someone doing an enormous disservice in America. Ben Stein is the worse kind of troll. I hope the media ostracizes him and I expect they will. He has completely ruined his legacy with his appearance in Expelled. Though he can probably make good money doing speaking jobs to fundies.
- palish 19y ago
  Words have value regardless of who said them. It is unfortunate that not everyone respects that. Personally, I until I turned 18 I was incredibly frustrated time and time again because people did not take me seriously, as they would an adult. It wasn't because of what I was saying, but because of who I was: a child. So while I wholeheartedly disagree with Mr. Stein's political views, I stand by the notion that a person can say powerful words regardless of who they are.
  - rms 19y ago
    Keep in mind that Ben Stein's stance on evolution is not a political view. He is manipulating people into rejecting scientific fact. It is a shame people don't take children seriously, but it is not a shame that Ben Stein is going to be blacklisted by Hollywood. Ben Stein may say some valuable things in the future and I don't completely dismiss everything he says as wrong -- I just do not care what the man has to say anymore.

chaostheory 19y ago

I don't agree with 100% with Ben Stein on everything (ex his new movie), but research does back his article (old YC post): http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg19125691.300 http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg19125691.300 "It's complicated explaining how genius or expertise is created and why it's so rare. But it isn't magic, and it isn't born. These people don't necessarily have an especially high IQ... And the one thing they always have is this incredible investment of effort."

run4yourlives 19y ago

One misguided view or incorrect theory does not a fool make.

doug_m 19y ago
right but intelligent design is not just a misguided view, if its allowed to propagate its going to hold back scientific progress for ours and future generations so it deserves to follow educatated/intelligent guys like this around with them.
- run4yourlives 19y ago
  ID is basically an American phenomena. (oh, and maybe in the middle east too). Most of the rest of the world is pretty much settled on this topic.
  - mtts 19y ago
    You'd think that, but about three years ago the Dutch minister of education (Maria van der Hoeven) suggested ID should be taught in schools as well. I was flabbergasted.
rms 19y ago
Intelligent design is not a theory. It is a direct contradiction to scientific fact. It does not deserve to ever be mentioned in the same sentence as evolution. I'm fine if Ben Stein believes this individually but what offends me is his desire to spread his lies.
- run4yourlives 19y ago
  > I'm fine if Ben Stein believes this individually but what offends me is his desire to spread his lies. Well, that's democracy for you. If you could stop everyone who you thought was spreading ignorance from sharing/convincing others of their views, you'd be living someplace else.

lvecsey 19y ago

Its not that theres a conspiracy its just that sometimes when you have a structure in place its hard for it to change or improve. Does the US government even have a group of people working on just that topic? Surely the three main branches of government can't be the final word. Alan Kay talks about glorious cathedral structures in Smalltalk and a similar structure has set in with science, where researchers are careful with how they write their papers to the point where a mis step could have them falling from the rafters, career wise.

ArcticCelt 19y ago

I agree with you but what he said just make sense and many start up wana bee need to hear it. It almost hurts to have to agree with someone like that but the content of that article is still valid.