6 ms·

This is probably where I should mention my two longer articles that discuss this in depth; https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2016/06/09/goodharts-law-and-why-measureme

This is probably where I should mention my two longer articles that discuss this in depth; https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2016/06/09/goodharts-law-and-why-measurement-is-hard/ https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2016/06/09/goodharts-law-and-why-... https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2016/09/29/soft-bias-of-underspecified-goals/ https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2016/09/29/soft-bias-of-underspec... As well as my more recent paper categorizing the different ways it occurs; https://arxiv.org/abs/1803.04585 https://arxiv.org/abs/1803.04585

Symmetry 8y ago
That was a much better take on Goodhart's Law than the Wikipedia article. It's easy to give up and say "Measurement is impossible!" but really we have to balance different factors and measurements are more dangerous at some times than at others.
- rsync 8y ago
  Lots of content at ribbonfarm is very, very good ... highly recommended ... https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2010/11/05/ancient-rivers-of-money/ https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2010/11/05/ancient-rivers-of-mone... https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/03/02/fools-and-their-money-metaphors/ https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/03/02/fools-and-their-money-... The Return of the Barbarian Can Hydras eat unknown unknowns for lunch The Premium Mediocre Life of Maya Millennial
waltherg 8y ago
Since you’re here, what does the following property stand for in your second paper? s ∈ AifM(s)/gec
- defen 8y ago
  Not OP but that should probably render as: s ∈ A if M(s) >= c So: s (system state) is a member of A (permissible region) if M(s) (proxy measure of s since we can't directly observe it) is greater than or equal to c (threshold)
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
eboyjr 8y ago
Reducing a situation to a single measurement hides the dimensionality. I think intuition accounts for more kinds of measurement albeit less accurate or describable.
bonniemuffin 8y ago
Thanks for this great work-- I spend a lot of time thinking about this stuff and enjoy reading other people's takes on how to deal with the impossibility of finding the One True Metric to rule them all. To keep myself sharp looking out for the perverse incentives, I have to remind myself: don't be a slave to the metrics. We're data-informed, not data-driven. Data informs; people drive.
robertk 8y ago
Great stuff. Say hi to Scott! Are you both at MIRI now?

Symmetry 8y ago

That was a much better take on Goodhart's Law than the Wikipedia article. It's easy to give up and say "Measurement is impossible!" but really we have to balance different factors and measurements are more dangerous at some times than at others.

rsync 8y ago
Lots of content at ribbonfarm is very, very good ... highly recommended ... https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2010/11/05/ancient-rivers-of-money/ https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2010/11/05/ancient-rivers-of-mone... https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/03/02/fools-and-their-money-metaphors/ https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/03/02/fools-and-their-money-... The Return of the Barbarian Can Hydras eat unknown unknowns for lunch The Premium Mediocre Life of Maya Millennial

waltherg 8y ago

Since you’re here, what does the following property stand for in your second paper? s ∈ AifM(s)/gec

defen 8y ago
Not OP but that should probably render as: s ∈ A if M(s) >= c So: s (system state) is a member of A (permissible region) if M(s) (proxy measure of s since we can't directly observe it) is greater than or equal to c (threshold)
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

eboyjr 8y ago

Reducing a situation to a single measurement hides the dimensionality. I think intuition accounts for more kinds of measurement albeit less accurate or describable.

bonniemuffin 8y ago

Thanks for this great work-- I spend a lot of time thinking about this stuff and enjoy reading other people's takes on how to deal with the impossibility of finding the One True Metric to rule them all. To keep myself sharp looking out for the perverse incentives, I have to remind myself: don't be a slave to the metrics. We're data-informed, not data-driven. Data informs; people drive.

robertk 8y ago

Great stuff. Say hi to Scott! Are you both at MIRI now?