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What always gets lost in this debate though is the fact that grades and SAT scores aren't especially meaningful or important. Given that we've had Asians and Je

What always gets lost in this debate though is the fact that grades and SAT scores aren't especially meaningful or important. Given that we've had Asians and Jews freaking out all week and making dogwhistle attacks against blacks/hispanics because of the Stuy admissions issue, the fact that these so-called metrics aren't inherently any better or more fair than a personality test or whatever somehow always gets lost in the mix. That's not to say that schools should discriminate against Asians, they shouldn't, but people also shouldn't hold up tests and GPA as some sort of beacon of fairness and meritocracy.

dnautics 8y ago
Why do you assume that Asians are only good at posting test scores and grades? Those scores are being talked about because of all the criteria they are the measurable ones, so you can use them as a baseline. Asian Americans do extracurricular activities just like everyone else does.
- Alex3917 8y ago
  > Why do you assume that Asians are only good at posting test scores and grades? Not something I said or implied. I was purely talking about the responses to the NYC admissions thing on Facebook, the NYC subreddit, etc. > Those scores are being talked about because of all the criteria they are the measurable ones They're not measurable, they just have numbers attached to them. You can attach numbers to a personality test just as easily.
  - ksk 8y ago
    Two people solving a maths problem draw upon a system of acquired knowledge that is uncorrelated with their gender, age, ethnicity and sexual orientation. If they get identical answers, they are graded identically. >You can attach numbers to a personality test just as easily. Please, do propose this novel test. Shouldn't take you too long..
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
- JackFr 8y ago
  > Asian Americans do extracurricular activities just like everyone else For instance https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/jeremy-lin-1.html https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/jeremy-lin-1.ht...
poster123 8y ago
Studies have shown grades and test scores are predictive of college graduation rates and grades. Where is the research showing that subjective assessments of personality do so?
- Alex3917 8y ago
  > Studies have shown grades and test scores are predictive of college graduation rates and grades. College grades and graduation rates don't matter either though. Given that society has limited resources, we should be trying to give the best educations to those most likely to do stuff that contributes positively to society, not those who are most likely to spend their four years maximizing their GPA and those most likely to graduate.
  - whatok 8y ago
    How do you identify individuals who are "most likely to do stuff that contributes positively to society"? How do you define "positively to society"?
    - Alex3917 8y ago
      > How do you identify individuals who are "most likely to do stuff that contributes positively to society"? I think the basic things to look for are people who have some combination of: - Basic awareness of what's going on locally, nationally, and around the world, and the problems that society faces. - Technical skills (e.g. math, science, the active literacies, etc.) - Interpersonal skills, leadership ability, grit, resourcefulness, and other positive personality traits. - Passion of certain hobbies, interests, problems, etc. - Track record of success in one or more areas. - Culture literacy In other words, leaving aside the issue of whether or not they're using these criteria as a way to discriminate, what Harvard is ostensibly looking for today. > How do you define "positively to society"? That's really up to the school faculty. Each person's definition is going to be different, and you can't really impose something on people from on high.
    - xxxdarrenxxx 8y ago
throwaway37585 8y ago
“Research suggests that the SAT, widely used in college admissions, is primarily a measure of g. A correlation of .82 has been found between g scores computed from an IQ test battery and SAT scores. In a study of 165,000 students at 41 U.S. colleges, SAT scores were found to be correlated at .47 with first-year college grade-point average after correcting for range restriction in SAT scores (the correlation rises to .55 when course difficulty is held constant, i.e., if all students attended the same set of classes). [1][2]” [1] Sackett et al. 2008 [2] Frey & Detterman 2003
- Alex3917 8y ago
  > widely used in college admissions You need to correct for the fact that it's used in college admissions though, otherwise this isn't telling you anything. E.g. if tree identification were used as the basis for college admissions, within a couple years you'd find that the people who did the best in college were the ones who were the best at identifying trees.
  - throwaway37585 8y ago
    My quote said SAT scores correlate with the g-factor and with GPA, not with admissions. If tree identification also correlated with these in your hypothetical world, why wouldn’t it be a legitimate criterion?
    - Alex3917 8y ago
      > My quote said SAT scores correlate with the g-factor and with GPA, not with admissions. My point was that the fact that it's used in admissions changes the correlation with g-factor and GPA. If you want to argue that SAT correlates with these things, then you should only be using SAT scores from countries where the SAT isn't used in college admissions.
      - throwaway37585 8y ago
        What do you mean by “changes the correlation”, and how is that relevant? I don’t know what you’re getting at.

dnautics 8y ago

Why do you assume that Asians are only good at posting test scores and grades? Those scores are being talked about because of all the criteria they are the measurable ones, so you can use them as a baseline. Asian Americans do extracurricular activities just like everyone else does.

Alex3917 8y ago
> Why do you assume that Asians are only good at posting test scores and grades? Not something I said or implied. I was purely talking about the responses to the NYC admissions thing on Facebook, the NYC subreddit, etc. > Those scores are being talked about because of all the criteria they are the measurable ones They're not measurable, they just have numbers attached to them. You can attach numbers to a personality test just as easily.
- ksk 8y ago
  Two people solving a maths problem draw upon a system of acquired knowledge that is uncorrelated with their gender, age, ethnicity and sexual orientation. If they get identical answers, they are graded identically. >You can attach numbers to a personality test just as easily. Please, do propose this novel test. Shouldn't take you too long..
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
JackFr 8y ago
> Asian Americans do extracurricular activities just like everyone else For instance https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/jeremy-lin-1.html https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/jeremy-lin-1.ht...

poster123 8y ago

Studies have shown grades and test scores are predictive of college graduation rates and grades. Where is the research showing that subjective assessments of personality do so?

Alex3917 8y ago
> Studies have shown grades and test scores are predictive of college graduation rates and grades. College grades and graduation rates don't matter either though. Given that society has limited resources, we should be trying to give the best educations to those most likely to do stuff that contributes positively to society, not those who are most likely to spend their four years maximizing their GPA and those most likely to graduate.
- whatok 8y ago
  How do you identify individuals who are "most likely to do stuff that contributes positively to society"? How do you define "positively to society"?
  - Alex3917 8y ago
    > How do you identify individuals who are "most likely to do stuff that contributes positively to society"? I think the basic things to look for are people who have some combination of: - Basic awareness of what's going on locally, nationally, and around the world, and the problems that society faces. - Technical skills (e.g. math, science, the active literacies, etc.) - Interpersonal skills, leadership ability, grit, resourcefulness, and other positive personality traits. - Passion of certain hobbies, interests, problems, etc. - Track record of success in one or more areas. - Culture literacy In other words, leaving aside the issue of whether or not they're using these criteria as a way to discriminate, what Harvard is ostensibly looking for today. > How do you define "positively to society"? That's really up to the school faculty. Each person's definition is going to be different, and you can't really impose something on people from on high.
  - xxxdarrenxxx 8y ago

throwaway37585 8y ago

“Research suggests that the SAT, widely used in college admissions, is primarily a measure of g. A correlation of .82 has been found between g scores computed from an IQ test battery and SAT scores. In a study of 165,000 students at 41 U.S. colleges, SAT scores were found to be correlated at .47 with first-year college grade-point average after correcting for range restriction in SAT scores (the correlation rises to .55 when course difficulty is held constant, i.e., if all students attended the same set of classes). [1][2]” [1] Sackett et al. 2008 [2] Frey & Detterman 2003

Alex3917 8y ago
> widely used in college admissions You need to correct for the fact that it's used in college admissions though, otherwise this isn't telling you anything. E.g. if tree identification were used as the basis for college admissions, within a couple years you'd find that the people who did the best in college were the ones who were the best at identifying trees.
- throwaway37585 8y ago
  My quote said SAT scores correlate with the g-factor and with GPA, not with admissions. If tree identification also correlated with these in your hypothetical world, why wouldn’t it be a legitimate criterion?
  - Alex3917 8y ago
    > My quote said SAT scores correlate with the g-factor and with GPA, not with admissions. My point was that the fact that it's used in admissions changes the correlation with g-factor and GPA. If you want to argue that SAT correlates with these things, then you should only be using SAT scores from countries where the SAT isn't used in college admissions.
    - throwaway37585 8y ago
      What do you mean by “changes the correlation”, and how is that relevant? I don’t know what you’re getting at.