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There may be racial differences in personality, but it is implausible that as the proportion of Asians in the high-achieving student population rises, their per

There may be racial differences in personality, but it is implausible that as the proportion of Asians in the high-achieving student population rises, their personalities get just worse enough that the fraction of Asian students at Harvard stays about the same. Harvard admits this when it says that what brings the Asian fraction down to 18% is "demographic". Elite universities are often accusing the broader society of racism, when in fact they are some of the most blatant perpetrators of racial discrimination.

evanlivingston 8y ago
I agree with you up until your last point. It's important to not confuse accusations made by the student body of a university with accusations made by the administration.
pishpash 8y ago
Institutions like Harvard play the same role for the aristocratic elites as Trump does for his base: keep things more or less the same as the good old days.
- lainga 8y ago
  How is "accounting for a category called 'demographic,'... [pushing] up African-American and Hispanic numbers, while reducing whites and Asian-Americans" maintaining the "good old days"? Or are these stodgy elites just incompetent bunglers?
  - pishpash 8y ago
    That's just dividing the (small) minority pie between the 'others'. If African American or Hispanic numbers ever threaten to reach those of the Asian horde, you think they'd keep promoting diversity?
    - lainga 8y ago
      OK, first off, from TFA, "Harvard’s class of 2021 is 14.6 percent African-American, 22.2 percent Asian-American, 11.6 percent Hispanic and 2.5 percent Native-American or Pacific Islander, according to Harvard’s website." That leaves you with 49.1-percent white or Jewish, which I don't consider small pie. Second, I and my maternal ancestors haven't been part of a "horde" since Padishah Babur shacked up in the 16th century.
    - throwaway37585 8y ago
      “Asian horde”? Really?
  - Ar-Curunir 8y ago
    This was why this holistic admission was introduced in the first place: anti-semitism. Jewish applicants were becoming too good at the existing criteria used for admissions, so these universities switched to more subjective standards that they could use to disqualify these candidates.
    - ra1n85 8y ago
      Do you have a source for that? I would have assumed it was to create some diversity in their acceptance pool.
      - lainga 8y ago
        I am thinking the parent was quoting also TFA, who themselves quoted the plaintiffs, whose source I am not sure: "They [the plaintiffs] compare Harvard’s treatment of Asian-Americans with its well-documented campaign to reduce the growing number of Jews being admitted to Harvard in the 1920s."
      - sequoia 8y ago
        > In the 1920's, the Protestant Establishment still dominated business and society. University administrators sensed that if they admitted too many Jews, they would alienate themselves from the power centers around them. So they restricted the number of Jews by shifting their admissions criteria and putting more emphasis on "character," measured by alumni connections, athletic skill and personal letters of recommendation. Applicants were less likely to be admitted if all they demonstrated was academic brilliance. https://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/06/books/review/the-chosen-getting-in.html https://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/06/books/review/the-chosen-g...
Alex3917 8y ago
What always gets lost in this debate though is the fact that grades and SAT scores aren't especially meaningful or important. Given that we've had Asians and Jews freaking out all week and making dogwhistle attacks against blacks/hispanics because of the Stuy admissions issue, the fact that these so-called metrics aren't inherently any better or more fair than a personality test or whatever somehow always gets lost in the mix. That's not to say that schools should discriminate against Asians, they shouldn't, but people also shouldn't hold up tests and GPA as some sort of beacon of fairness and meritocracy.
- dnautics 8y ago
  Why do you assume that Asians are only good at posting test scores and grades? Those scores are being talked about because of all the criteria they are the measurable ones, so you can use them as a baseline. Asian Americans do extracurricular activities just like everyone else does.
  - Alex3917 8y ago
    > Why do you assume that Asians are only good at posting test scores and grades? Not something I said or implied. I was purely talking about the responses to the NYC admissions thing on Facebook, the NYC subreddit, etc. > Those scores are being talked about because of all the criteria they are the measurable ones They're not measurable, they just have numbers attached to them. You can attach numbers to a personality test just as easily.
    - ksk 8y ago
      Two people solving a maths problem draw upon a system of acquired knowledge that is uncorrelated with their gender, age, ethnicity and sexual orientation. If they get identical answers, they are graded identically. >You can attach numbers to a personality test just as easily. Please, do propose this novel test. Shouldn't take you too long..
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
Karishma1234 8y ago
Look no further than this video. Hispanic and Black populations in USA are consistently painting themselves as victims. As a result there are many Hispanic and Black organisations focused activism and their membership counts as "personality development" at Harvard. Asian students on other hand are busy getting successful instead of painting themselves as victims. How an Indian student faked to be African American and get admission https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwMzZtU5H7I&t=4s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwMzZtU5H7I&t=4s
- leekh 8y ago
  What you suggest sounds like the model minority myth.
- evanlivingston 8y ago
  It's hard to determine if this comment is racist or just ignorant. If it wasn't 2018 I would give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it was just ignorant. "Asian students on other hand are busy getting successful" What does that mean? How do I get successful? It's a thing I can just will into existence? When you so profoundly reduce success to something a person can just "get" you're painting a picture of a level playing field on which everyone plays. There's loads, and loads, and loads.....and loads more of studies, books, theory, film, music, poetry that all very clearly articulate systemic inequalities that make it difficult for a person to just simply "get successful". There are good conversations on HN about this very point. If you truly feel Hispanic and Black populations are painting themselves as victims in a way that doesn't reflect their reality I urge you to spend time talking to people from these groups. Get to know them, ask them their stories, learn about their families, have meals with them and understand them. Read about Hispanic and Black civil rights movements and struggles and see what of your beliefs come out on the other side.
whatok 8y ago
Don't know about racial differences but there are absolutely cultural differences that probably correspond with race.

evanlivingston 8y ago

I agree with you up until your last point. It's important to not confuse accusations made by the student body of a university with accusations made by the administration.

pishpash 8y ago

Institutions like Harvard play the same role for the aristocratic elites as Trump does for his base: keep things more or less the same as the good old days.

lainga 8y ago
How is "accounting for a category called 'demographic,'... [pushing] up African-American and Hispanic numbers, while reducing whites and Asian-Americans" maintaining the "good old days"? Or are these stodgy elites just incompetent bunglers?
- pishpash 8y ago
  That's just dividing the (small) minority pie between the 'others'. If African American or Hispanic numbers ever threaten to reach those of the Asian horde, you think they'd keep promoting diversity?
  - lainga 8y ago
    OK, first off, from TFA, "Harvard’s class of 2021 is 14.6 percent African-American, 22.2 percent Asian-American, 11.6 percent Hispanic and 2.5 percent Native-American or Pacific Islander, according to Harvard’s website." That leaves you with 49.1-percent white or Jewish, which I don't consider small pie. Second, I and my maternal ancestors haven't been part of a "horde" since Padishah Babur shacked up in the 16th century.
  - throwaway37585 8y ago
    “Asian horde”? Really?
- Ar-Curunir 8y ago
  This was why this holistic admission was introduced in the first place: anti-semitism. Jewish applicants were becoming too good at the existing criteria used for admissions, so these universities switched to more subjective standards that they could use to disqualify these candidates.
  - ra1n85 8y ago
    Do you have a source for that? I would have assumed it was to create some diversity in their acceptance pool.
    - lainga 8y ago
      I am thinking the parent was quoting also TFA, who themselves quoted the plaintiffs, whose source I am not sure: "They [the plaintiffs] compare Harvard’s treatment of Asian-Americans with its well-documented campaign to reduce the growing number of Jews being admitted to Harvard in the 1920s."
    - sequoia 8y ago
      > In the 1920's, the Protestant Establishment still dominated business and society. University administrators sensed that if they admitted too many Jews, they would alienate themselves from the power centers around them. So they restricted the number of Jews by shifting their admissions criteria and putting more emphasis on "character," measured by alumni connections, athletic skill and personal letters of recommendation. Applicants were less likely to be admitted if all they demonstrated was academic brilliance. https://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/06/books/review/the-chosen-getting-in.html https://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/06/books/review/the-chosen-g...

Alex3917 8y ago

What always gets lost in this debate though is the fact that grades and SAT scores aren't especially meaningful or important. Given that we've had Asians and Jews freaking out all week and making dogwhistle attacks against blacks/hispanics because of the Stuy admissions issue, the fact that these so-called metrics aren't inherently any better or more fair than a personality test or whatever somehow always gets lost in the mix. That's not to say that schools should discriminate against Asians, they shouldn't, but people also shouldn't hold up tests and GPA as some sort of beacon of fairness and meritocracy.

dnautics 8y ago
Why do you assume that Asians are only good at posting test scores and grades? Those scores are being talked about because of all the criteria they are the measurable ones, so you can use them as a baseline. Asian Americans do extracurricular activities just like everyone else does.
- Alex3917 8y ago
  > Why do you assume that Asians are only good at posting test scores and grades? Not something I said or implied. I was purely talking about the responses to the NYC admissions thing on Facebook, the NYC subreddit, etc. > Those scores are being talked about because of all the criteria they are the measurable ones They're not measurable, they just have numbers attached to them. You can attach numbers to a personality test just as easily.
  - ksk 8y ago
    Two people solving a maths problem draw upon a system of acquired knowledge that is uncorrelated with their gender, age, ethnicity and sexual orientation. If they get identical answers, they are graded identically. >You can attach numbers to a personality test just as easily. Please, do propose this novel test. Shouldn't take you too long..
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]

Karishma1234 8y ago

Look no further than this video. Hispanic and Black populations in USA are consistently painting themselves as victims. As a result there are many Hispanic and Black organisations focused activism and their membership counts as "personality development" at Harvard. Asian students on other hand are busy getting successful instead of painting themselves as victims. How an Indian student faked to be African American and get admission https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwMzZtU5H7I&t=4s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwMzZtU5H7I&t=4s

leekh 8y ago
What you suggest sounds like the model minority myth.
evanlivingston 8y ago
It's hard to determine if this comment is racist or just ignorant. If it wasn't 2018 I would give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it was just ignorant. "Asian students on other hand are busy getting successful" What does that mean? How do I get successful? It's a thing I can just will into existence? When you so profoundly reduce success to something a person can just "get" you're painting a picture of a level playing field on which everyone plays. There's loads, and loads, and loads.....and loads more of studies, books, theory, film, music, poetry that all very clearly articulate systemic inequalities that make it difficult for a person to just simply "get successful". There are good conversations on HN about this very point. If you truly feel Hispanic and Black populations are painting themselves as victims in a way that doesn't reflect their reality I urge you to spend time talking to people from these groups. Get to know them, ask them their stories, learn about their families, have meals with them and understand them. Read about Hispanic and Black civil rights movements and struggles and see what of your beliefs come out on the other side.

whatok 8y ago

Don't know about racial differences but there are absolutely cultural differences that probably correspond with race.