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> In Toronto, where the subway system doesn’t reach the international airport, a brand-new airport express line has fallen seriously short of ridership expectat

> In Toronto, where the subway system doesn’t reach the international airport, a brand-new airport express line has fallen seriously short of ridership expectations, even with its one-way fare of $12.35 The reason this is failing is because of awareness. I travel to Toronto for work 4-5 times every year (for the past 12 years). I heard about this extension being approved a couple years ago and I've never seen a sign for it in Pearson (there must be some somewhere). I've also asked people who live in Toronto whatever happened to this project and nobody even knows what I'm talking about. Meanwhile, I learn from this article that it's actually up and running and they not only consider it a failure but they're using it to say other transit systems won't work. A Musk built project won't fail on awareness like this project has.

Fsp2WFuH 8y ago
Yes, it will fail for other reasons.
- marter 8y ago
  Which are?
perardi 8y ago
Any good analysis out there as to why the UP Express hasn't done so well? I took it just this week, and it's certainly better than the bus they have to shuttle from the end of the subway line to Pearson.
- RedCrowbar 8y ago
  I don't think it's fair to call UP Express a failure yet. It certainly had a bumpy start, but the ridership seems to have been improving recently [1] [1] https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2018/01/how-toronto-turned-an-airport-rail-failure-into-a-commuter-victory/551012/ https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2018/01/how-toronto-t...
king_magic 8y ago
I can’t understand that (it being considered a failure) - the UP is super super convienent when I fly into TO.
graeme 8y ago
Good point about the signs. I found the UP express rather hard to find. Great experience though once aboard.
lhorie 8y ago
> The reason this is failing is because of awareness I don't think so. On google maps, UP is the only option shown when going from union to pearson. The thing is that most people still need to take public transit to get to Union station, so it's not convenient enough for most people. I used to live in Etobicoke where there's an express bus to Kipling station (the closest subway station to the airport). There's also an express bus line from Kipling to the airport. The subway system is run by the same entity (the TTC) as the buses, so a fare to go from Union station (downtown) to Pearson airport costs $3.25 and gets you there in about an hour. Subways run every few minutes and the express line to the airport every 10. By comparison, the UP express (the new train line) fare costs $12.35 and gets you there in about 30 mins, running every 15 minutes. So when considering UP, you're looking at paying $9 more to save maybe 30 minutes travel time (from union station). BUT, the catch is that UP only goes from the airport to union station. The TTC also serves the entire Greater Toronto Area, so for the same $3.25 you can get from _anywhere_ in the city to the airport, and if you have a monthly pass (which you most likely do if you commute), then it basically costs nothing to go to the airport. Why would you go all the way down to the harbor front just to pay another $12 to go back up to Etobicoke, when you can just take the TTC to go directly to the airport for no extra cost?
- bonestamp2 8y ago
  > On google maps, UP is the only option shown when going from union to pearson. I guess other people must be different, or maybe not since ridership is low, but I don't check google maps unless I'm the driver (renting a car). If I'm planning on taking a cab I won't even open google maps at the airport, so I don't believe that is the right place to count on raising awareness of UP (for out-of-towners at least). But I do agree with your other point about why people who live in Toronto would rarely use UP... that explains that part of it.
motohagiography 8y ago
Part of why I don't use the Toronto UP link is: - I didn't know it was completed and operating. - Bulk of residential population is 30-45min+ subway ride from Union Station anyway, might have assumed people travel from their offices. - If due to a subway delay I miss a flight because I only paid $15 and wanted to save $30, the savings doesn't justify the risk. The independent probabilities of unavoidable delays on each leg of journey add up, where in car there are alternate routes. - Would consider taking train if it came with flight insurance. - There is no clear signage at arrivals of where the UP line is, as signage favors limousines, then taxis, then pickup, etc. - Any signage would need to include scheduling information as walking to train to find it's not running means never going back. I supported the UP line in principle when they were talking about building it, but can see why their numbers aren't up yet.
- bonestamp2 8y ago
  > I didn't know it was completed and operating. A new transit line is usually pretty big news in any city, but like I said... everyone in Toronto that I asked about it didn't know about it either. So they've really blown it on awareness. Thankfully, that's actually a pretty easy thing to fix.
Element_ 8y ago
There are signs all over the airport, there are signs and digital boards on the airports local shuttle showing which stop to get off for the UP Express etc... If you goto the airport website (www.torontopearson.com) it is displayed on the front page. The reason it's receiving slow adoption is because of the price. Even after they reduced the fare you can still get a taxi or Uber directly to your door for a little more than the fare price (Uber and Lyft were recently granted permission for pickups directly from the airport). Additionally because of the lumpy nature of air travel and the multiple commuting stops the UP Express can be packed during peak times. The last time I got off a flight from London and took the UP Express downtown there was standing room only and no space in the luggage racks for my bags.
Pxtl 8y ago
To be fair, everything about Pearson is hard. I've always found it difficult to navigate - everything feels backwards and confusing, even simple things like the terminal names (there is no Terminal 2!?). UPX having the same problem is unsurprising.

Fsp2WFuH 8y ago

Yes, it will fail for other reasons.

marter 8y ago
Which are?

perardi 8y ago

Any good analysis out there as to why the UP Express hasn't done so well? I took it just this week, and it's certainly better than the bus they have to shuttle from the end of the subway line to Pearson.

RedCrowbar 8y ago
I don't think it's fair to call UP Express a failure yet. It certainly had a bumpy start, but the ridership seems to have been improving recently [1] [1] https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2018/01/how-toronto-turned-an-airport-rail-failure-into-a-commuter-victory/551012/ https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2018/01/how-toronto-t...

king_magic 8y ago

I can’t understand that (it being considered a failure) - the UP is super super convienent when I fly into TO.

graeme 8y ago

Good point about the signs. I found the UP express rather hard to find. Great experience though once aboard.

lhorie 8y ago

> The reason this is failing is because of awareness I don't think so. On google maps, UP is the only option shown when going from union to pearson. The thing is that most people still need to take public transit to get to Union station, so it's not convenient enough for most people. I used to live in Etobicoke where there's an express bus to Kipling station (the closest subway station to the airport). There's also an express bus line from Kipling to the airport. The subway system is run by the same entity (the TTC) as the buses, so a fare to go from Union station (downtown) to Pearson airport costs $3.25 and gets you there in about an hour. Subways run every few minutes and the express line to the airport every 10. By comparison, the UP express (the new train line) fare costs $12.35 and gets you there in about 30 mins, running every 15 minutes. So when considering UP, you're looking at paying $9 more to save maybe 30 minutes travel time (from union station). BUT, the catch is that UP only goes from the airport to union station. The TTC also serves the entire Greater Toronto Area, so for the same $3.25 you can get from _anywhere_ in the city to the airport, and if you have a monthly pass (which you most likely do if you commute), then it basically costs nothing to go to the airport. Why would you go all the way down to the harbor front just to pay another $12 to go back up to Etobicoke, when you can just take the TTC to go directly to the airport for no extra cost?

bonestamp2 8y ago
> On google maps, UP is the only option shown when going from union to pearson. I guess other people must be different, or maybe not since ridership is low, but I don't check google maps unless I'm the driver (renting a car). If I'm planning on taking a cab I won't even open google maps at the airport, so I don't believe that is the right place to count on raising awareness of UP (for out-of-towners at least). But I do agree with your other point about why people who live in Toronto would rarely use UP... that explains that part of it.

motohagiography 8y ago

Part of why I don't use the Toronto UP link is: - I didn't know it was completed and operating. - Bulk of residential population is 30-45min+ subway ride from Union Station anyway, might have assumed people travel from their offices. - If due to a subway delay I miss a flight because I only paid $15 and wanted to save $30, the savings doesn't justify the risk. The independent probabilities of unavoidable delays on each leg of journey add up, where in car there are alternate routes. - Would consider taking train if it came with flight insurance. - There is no clear signage at arrivals of where the UP line is, as signage favors limousines, then taxis, then pickup, etc. - Any signage would need to include scheduling information as walking to train to find it's not running means never going back. I supported the UP line in principle when they were talking about building it, but can see why their numbers aren't up yet.

bonestamp2 8y ago
> I didn't know it was completed and operating. A new transit line is usually pretty big news in any city, but like I said... everyone in Toronto that I asked about it didn't know about it either. So they've really blown it on awareness. Thankfully, that's actually a pretty easy thing to fix.

Element_ 8y ago

There are signs all over the airport, there are signs and digital boards on the airports local shuttle showing which stop to get off for the UP Express etc... If you goto the airport website (www.torontopearson.com) it is displayed on the front page. The reason it's receiving slow adoption is because of the price. Even after they reduced the fare you can still get a taxi or Uber directly to your door for a little more than the fare price (Uber and Lyft were recently granted permission for pickups directly from the airport). Additionally because of the lumpy nature of air travel and the multiple commuting stops the UP Express can be packed during peak times. The last time I got off a flight from London and took the UP Express downtown there was standing room only and no space in the luggage racks for my bags.

Pxtl 8y ago

To be fair, everything about Pearson is hard. I've always found it difficult to navigate - everything feels backwards and confusing, even simple things like the terminal names (there is no Terminal 2!?). UPX having the same problem is unsurprising.