4 ms·

It gets better, read the section on cellular memory

by intarga 8y ago

AllegedAlec 8y ago
Wow
- pazimzadeh 8y ago
  What?
  - AllegedAlec 8y ago
    He suggests that cells are intelligent, and have a memory, and that this is the reason why a middle-aged man started liking classical music after having a donor organ from a violinist.
    - pazimzadeh 8y ago
      Cells are intelligent. And have a memory. I'm a microbiologist, studying bacteria (single cells), and let me tell you - these things are true. The organ transplantation thing seems far fetched and probably BS, but the idea that someone's mood could change after an organ transplant is not that far fetched. My mom studies transplantation and I know a bit of immunology as well. Organ transplantation stimulates an immune response and in turn release of various cytokines into the blood, which could travel to the brain and affect mood. Inflammation in the brain is linked to many mood disorders. The worst thing about the article is it's way too long, I think the author must like to hear himself talk. I'm also not sure of why he dismisses quorum sensing. Surely the "whole" does not stop at the single cell level. There's the whole community, etc..
      - AllegedAlec 8y ago
        > Cells (...) have a memory He didn't seem talking about genomics or epigenomics, though. > Cells are intelligent. Define intelligent. I don't see a mechanistic response unit, no matter how sophisticated, as intelligent. > Inflammation in the brain is linked to many mood disorders. That is, however, extremely different from starting to like classical music because your donor was a violinist. He wasn't talking about mood disorders, but specific preferences.
        pazimzadeh 8y ago
        Upon re-reading the organ transplant section, you're right that he says some crazy stuff. However, what he says should be experimentally testable, which means it's a valid hypothesis. I don't think the evidence he provided is anywhere near sufficient to support his claim though. > I don't see a mechanistic response unit, no matter how sophisticated, as intelligent. Can you provide an example of an "intelligent" system that is definitely not a "mechanistic response unit"? > He didn't seem talking about genomics or epigenomics, though Proteins can hold memory too. Not as stable as DNA except maybe for amyloid fibers like those in prions. But it's not out of the question.
        AllegedAlec 8y ago
        > Can you provide an example of an "intelligent" system that is definitely not a "mechanistic response unit"? Sure, intelligent systems do by definition have a mechanistically responsive element at its base; they're made of matter, after all. However, that doesn't mean that every system which is able to respond to changes in its environment is ipso facto intelligent. The neurons in the brain are not what makes a brain intelligent. It's the emergent meta-structures formed by neurons which allow us to think the way we think.
neutralid 8y ago
While I am skeptical of attributing personality changes due to cell memory from organ transplanting, is it possible for a cell or a cell collective to have information (memory) embedded as a dynamical system? Theoretically, it may be possible to embed memory into a dynamical system [1]. [1] http://www.pnas.org/content/105/48/18970 http://www.pnas.org/content/105/48/18970

It gets better, read the section on cellular memory

AllegedAlec 8y ago

Wow

pazimzadeh 8y ago
What?
- AllegedAlec 8y ago
  He suggests that cells are intelligent, and have a memory, and that this is the reason why a middle-aged man started liking classical music after having a donor organ from a violinist.
  - pazimzadeh 8y ago
    Cells are intelligent. And have a memory. I'm a microbiologist, studying bacteria (single cells), and let me tell you - these things are true. The organ transplantation thing seems far fetched and probably BS, but the idea that someone's mood could change after an organ transplant is not that far fetched. My mom studies transplantation and I know a bit of immunology as well. Organ transplantation stimulates an immune response and in turn release of various cytokines into the blood, which could travel to the brain and affect mood. Inflammation in the brain is linked to many mood disorders. The worst thing about the article is it's way too long, I think the author must like to hear himself talk. I'm also not sure of why he dismisses quorum sensing. Surely the "whole" does not stop at the single cell level. There's the whole community, etc..
    - AllegedAlec 8y ago
      > Cells (...) have a memory He didn't seem talking about genomics or epigenomics, though. > Cells are intelligent. Define intelligent. I don't see a mechanistic response unit, no matter how sophisticated, as intelligent. > Inflammation in the brain is linked to many mood disorders. That is, however, extremely different from starting to like classical music because your donor was a violinist. He wasn't talking about mood disorders, but specific preferences.
      - pazimzadeh 8y ago
        Upon re-reading the organ transplant section, you're right that he says some crazy stuff. However, what he says should be experimentally testable, which means it's a valid hypothesis. I don't think the evidence he provided is anywhere near sufficient to support his claim though. > I don't see a mechanistic response unit, no matter how sophisticated, as intelligent. Can you provide an example of an "intelligent" system that is definitely not a "mechanistic response unit"? > He didn't seem talking about genomics or epigenomics, though Proteins can hold memory too. Not as stable as DNA except maybe for amyloid fibers like those in prions. But it's not out of the question.
        AllegedAlec 8y ago
        > Can you provide an example of an "intelligent" system that is definitely not a "mechanistic response unit"? Sure, intelligent systems do by definition have a mechanistically responsive element at its base; they're made of matter, after all. However, that doesn't mean that every system which is able to respond to changes in its environment is ipso facto intelligent. The neurons in the brain are not what makes a brain intelligent. It's the emergent meta-structures formed by neurons which allow us to think the way we think.

neutralid 8y ago

While I am skeptical of attributing personality changes due to cell memory from organ transplanting, is it possible for a cell or a cell collective to have information (memory) embedded as a dynamical system? Theoretically, it may be possible to embed memory into a dynamical system [1]. [1] http://www.pnas.org/content/105/48/18970 http://www.pnas.org/content/105/48/18970