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True, but there are many people who can handle consistent logic but are not familiar with all the technical detail required for general purpose software develop

True, but there are many people who can handle consistent logic but are not familiar with all the technical detail required for general purpose software development. There is a lot of complexity that is completely unrelated to the core logic of a solution to a particular problem.

oblio 8y ago
Is there any of these higher level languages that doesn't add its own accidental complexity? (essential complexity being the one included in the core logic of the solution to the problem). They usually have their own jargon/terminology and concepts to learn. So they just move the goal posts...
- fauigerzigerk 8y ago
  No, I don't think it's just moving the goal posts if the difference between learning one or the other tool is measured in years. But I think it depends on what sorts of problems and solutions we're talking about. I don't believe for a second that all types of software can be created with this sort of end-user oriented wysiwyg + expressions tool.
prepend 8y ago
I have not experienced this. Every 4GL/5GL/wysiwyg in my decades ended up with some specialized user type learning the syntax of dragging blocks or whatnot. I’ve seen lots of demos (and bought lots) of reporting or automation tools intended for the “CEO” to make their own ad how reports only to have that mean that consultants are hired or someone else do it. At the end of the day, the hard part for many people is the idea of variables and abstraction and interfaces and looping and operators. Making a button vs a keyword to do this is maybe easier, but it doesn’t really Bridge very well to non-programmers. The closest I’ve seen is Excel with people who will not try R or Python but can write lots of stuff in Excel functions and pivots and maybe macros.
- fauigerzigerk 8y ago
  >I have not experienced this. Every 4GL/5GL/wysiwyg in my decades ended up with some specialized user type learning the syntax of dragging blocks or whatnot. There have always been power user types in small and large organisations who are not developers but can create simple solutions, mostly using point and click with some expressions, macros or SQL added in. The ones I have personally met have used dBase, Excel or Access (one of them a non-tech CEO). Of course they had to learn how to do it. But it didn't take them years to learn nor is keeping the skills fresh a full-time commitment. I think this is largely a disagreement over definitions. Can something that doesn't involve writing loops and mutating variables be called "building business apps"? I would say yes, but I understand how reasonable people could disagree on that.
- bigtex 8y ago
  Yes. At my employer we have evaluated many BI solutions who offer simple tools to develop solutions and really at the end of the day the IT people are going to be the ones doing the work. We have a few power users but investing in an expensive tool for just the dev team to develop in seems to be over doing it.

oblio 8y ago

Is there any of these higher level languages that doesn't add its own accidental complexity? (essential complexity being the one included in the core logic of the solution to the problem). They usually have their own jargon/terminology and concepts to learn. So they just move the goal posts...

fauigerzigerk 8y ago
No, I don't think it's just moving the goal posts if the difference between learning one or the other tool is measured in years. But I think it depends on what sorts of problems and solutions we're talking about. I don't believe for a second that all types of software can be created with this sort of end-user oriented wysiwyg + expressions tool.

prepend 8y ago

I have not experienced this. Every 4GL/5GL/wysiwyg in my decades ended up with some specialized user type learning the syntax of dragging blocks or whatnot. I’ve seen lots of demos (and bought lots) of reporting or automation tools intended for the “CEO” to make their own ad how reports only to have that mean that consultants are hired or someone else do it. At the end of the day, the hard part for many people is the idea of variables and abstraction and interfaces and looping and operators. Making a button vs a keyword to do this is maybe easier, but it doesn’t really Bridge very well to non-programmers. The closest I’ve seen is Excel with people who will not try R or Python but can write lots of stuff in Excel functions and pivots and maybe macros.

fauigerzigerk 8y ago
>I have not experienced this. Every 4GL/5GL/wysiwyg in my decades ended up with some specialized user type learning the syntax of dragging blocks or whatnot. There have always been power user types in small and large organisations who are not developers but can create simple solutions, mostly using point and click with some expressions, macros or SQL added in. The ones I have personally met have used dBase, Excel or Access (one of them a non-tech CEO). Of course they had to learn how to do it. But it didn't take them years to learn nor is keeping the skills fresh a full-time commitment. I think this is largely a disagreement over definitions. Can something that doesn't involve writing loops and mutating variables be called "building business apps"? I would say yes, but I understand how reasonable people could disagree on that.
bigtex 8y ago
Yes. At my employer we have evaluated many BI solutions who offer simple tools to develop solutions and really at the end of the day the IT people are going to be the ones doing the work. We have a few power users but investing in an expensive tool for just the dev team to develop in seems to be over doing it.