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If you focus on this at the point where you aren't getting what you want its too late. You need to build a relationship of trust before you ask for an exceptio

If you focus on this at the point where you aren't getting what you want its too late. You need to build a relationship of trust before you ask for an exception or special request (in the eye of the manager not you). Your manager should know the following: - That if there is a problem you will always come to him/her first not try and work around him - That he can count on you to do what needs to be done. You will go out of your way for her. If you've ever said "this isn't my job" then you will have only an adversarial relationship. - That you understand what his/her boss wants, and therefore can exercise good judgement in using whatever leeway you are asking for. Of all of these, that last point is the most important. You should intimately understand why they consider a conference talk to be something negative. Your manager should know you understand that and can therefore trust you. The fact you don't understand why they are against this conference talk is the root of the failure. Note that the relationship should be reciprocal. I'm not saying be a slave to your boss, but if you want anything other than the traditional boss/subordinate relationship you need to have trust you have each others backs.

confiscate 8y ago
agree. Especially with #3 "understand what boss wants" From the way OP phrased the question, it sounded like the OP felt the manager "owed" the OP. As in, OP feels going to the conference is a must, "a given", a "constitutional right", and that the manager "wronged" him by not letting him go. It's a very childish way of viewing the world. As in, I deserve to go to Disneyland. My mom won't let me, so I will now get a "thick skin" to "manage her". An adult would be thinking of helping mom pay the bills. OP focuses on himself, on what he wants. There is no mention in the question of what the manager wants. It screams "me me me"
- slededit 8y ago
  The whole post is really about understanding what the boss wants, but #3 is something more specific so I want to iterate more on it: A lot of people want to help their boss and have a reciprocal relationship. But the mere desire is not enough - you have to have the "street smarts" to be trusted. If you don't know what sort of things will get your boss into trouble with their boss then even if you have a good relationship its unlikely you'll get significant leeway. You are likely to cause problems out of ignorance and a tight leash is to protect you from that.
- greggarious 8y ago
  >OP feels going to the conference is a must, "a given", a "constitutional right", and that the manager "wronged" him by not letting him go. It's a very childish way of viewing the world. OP's employer does not own them - they have a right to a private life. While they certainly could not want OP identifying themselves as an agent of their employer when giving a talk, OP is entitled to use their free time / vacation days as they see fit.
  - frisco 8y ago
    That's true as long as they're not talking about their work at the conference. I assume they would be?
    - dagw 8y ago
      What does talking "about their work" actually entail?. I use Cython to do parts of my job. I've given talks about using Cython, drawing on experiences and knowledge gained while doing my job. Was that talking about work?
      - AznHisoka 8y ago
        The most interesting talks in conferences usually are case studies or explain how X was successfully used in a pratical project. It might be hard for OP to give such a talk unless he talked about his personal projects only. If he is just giving a generic talk about lessons learned without explaining the intricate war stories, thats a dull talk. Those are commodities.
        raducu 8y ago
        Oh please, unless he developed something patent-worthy or something specific that could be used by direct competition then it's stupid not to let an employee talk about his (technical) work. In 99.99% the cases where a manager would be so impertinent as to decide upon how the personal time of an employee be used, it's because the manager is a shitty manager and the employee is completely worthless in the eyes of the manager. It would be a great insult if a manager treated me like that, because it would either imply that I'm too stupid not to know what I can and what I cannot reveal about my work or (the most likely reason) that even though the risk of my presentation hurting the company is minute, I'm so worthless that he thinks he can just tell me what I can and can't do in my free time.
- AFNobody 8y ago
  - The manager and you have an equal relationship if you are any good at your job as you can replace the manager if you want to. - This whole "you must submit to your boss" attitude beyond performing the assigned tasks is absurd.
  - slededit 8y ago
    From the manager's POV, OP wants an exception to some policy (written or unwritten). If you want to get away with exceptions you need more than the normal adversarial relationship. There is a larger argument about whether you should even need an exception for this case, but the remedy for that is to find another job if you can't live with it. However your working life will be a lot easier if you learn to work around inadequacies in your chain of management - no place of work will ever be perfect.
    - meheleventyone 8y ago
      I think the thing that’s missing from this advice is a degree of compromise. Particularly if the policy is ‘unwritten’ aka the managers personal preference. Even with official policy many should be open to exceptions for good reason. As an employee you won’t get latitude without pushing for it and often for minor things forgiveness can be better than permission. Which isn’t to say it’s a good idea to be adversarial or sneaky but that there is really no need to be walked on either.
      - slededit 8y ago
        I didn't focus on OP because he already knows what he wants. Most people need help emphasizing with the other person not with their own wants/desires and compromise requires empathy. There are situations where someone is being over-accommodating and getting walked over but I didn't get that from the tone of the question. Asking forgiveness later is another advanced level topic but it generally goes hand in hand with a good working relationship that has already been established. Without that its a quick way to get reprimanded or fired. Remember, at the end of the day you are spending time on this specifically to get what you want. Its not an altruistic act for your manager.
- doglover7869 8y ago
  If the OP really wants to give a talk is because they are seeking for some kind of recognition or ego booster. This sounds very self centered and narcisistic.
  - eropple 8y ago
    There is often a positive career boost from presenting at a conference, which I guess you could so weirdly and pejoratively spin as "recognition" or even "self-centered". But not looking out for oneself is stupid and managers who don't look out for their employees' career development are bad managers. Being weird and shitty and making claims of "narcissism" should come with evidence, or at least an argument.
- KirinDave 8y ago
  > As in, OP feels going to the conference is a must, "a given", a "constitutional right", and that the manager "wronged" him by not letting him go. Well, free assembly and association are in fact corrolary to "free speech." If an employee wants to go speak at a conference and the manager says, "Don't" then one of two things are happening: 0. The employer is abusive and undeserving. 1. The manager is attempting to take credit for the employee's work and should be called out. There really aren't other scenarios; there's no valid reason to attempt to sabotage someone's career arc. > OP focuses on himself, on what he wants. There is no mention in the question of what the manager wants. It screams "me me me" Well evidently the manager in question isn't going to help the OP with their career, so someone's gotta do that. When a company aligns its interests with the career growth of their employees, then its a win-win. If it's pitched as an adversarial relationship, then there will be a winner and a loser. I cannot imagine why a good manager or intelligently run company would encourage such an adversarial relationship; it'll cause massive turnover.
anitil 8y ago
This is just fantastic advice! Edit to add: If you're wondering why your supervisor might be reticent to allow you to talk I can think of a couple of potential reasons. - They're worried you'll unintentionally leak something - They're worried you'll get hired - They're threatened by you - They want you focused .... But the easiest way to find out is just to ask.
dagw 8y ago
That he can count on you to do what needs to be done. You will go out of your way for her. If you've ever said "this isn't my job" then you will have only an adversarial relationship. True to the extent that it is actually related to your job in a larger sense and doing so won't adversely affect your ability to do your 'real' job. Many managers will just keeping adding more and more responsibilities to their 'best' workers until they either start saying "no", quit or burn out, often without any malice or ill intent. That being said there are better ways of phrasing it than "this isn't my job". Saying something along the lines of "if I do that I won't have time to finish X by next Tuesday as I promised. It might be worth checking with Dave and his team if they have someone who can work on it. Otherwise I'll be happy to do it, as long as you're OK with pushing X back a week".
- gtt 8y ago
  >>Many managers will just keeping adding more and more responsibilities to their 'best' workers until they either start saying "no", quit or burn out, often without any malice or ill intent. I consider such people total failure as managers and try to avoid.
  - bitshepherd 8y ago
    When I'm in the employee seat, I try to avoid managers that use blanket statements of people. The 'best' workers, where everyone -- including their manager -- goes when they need the hard questions answered, will usually quietly exit. They prefer not to cause a big scene, knowing their value. Value usually has a big catalyst in this, often appearing sudden and unexpected, exit. Some of these 'total failures' will go on to outdo even their own expectations. Some will do as you prophesize and 'fail' in their burnout, get fired and fade away. The strong ones will come back from it. People quit people, not jobs.
    - gtt 8y ago
      >People quit people, not jobs. To be fair, I've seen organizations so dysfunctional that even good managers could not protect their people from ambient shittiness. Below certain threshold there is no salvation for organization.
cmdkeen 8y ago
Good advice, I picked up some good phraseology for parts of it from the military: Your "1 up" and "2 up" (i.e your manager, and their manager) - what is your manager working towards, what is the context in which they are operating. Understanding that can play a large part in helping to exercise the good judgement, especially things to potentially flag up early. Appreciate they're context switching more frequently, launching straight into a complex issue you haven't discussed for a few days is going to cause a massive page fault. Give their brain a chance to get into gear, a quick refresher or catchup can help. Quick being 60 seconds.
oldsklgdfth 8y ago
This is gold and should be treated as such. Following these steps can make your work life very easy. However, if you really feel like you are right and your boss is wrong then I have some machiavellian advice for the workplace. 1. No one will give you anything because you just asked nicely. 2. Everyone is out for themselves, PERIOD. If you want more money, a new chair, better tools you have to create some pressure for your boss that can be eliviated by them giving you the thing you want. Example, you don't ask for more money, you make yourself semi-indespensible and then get another offer and say you're leaving. The same can be made of any situation. The main idea behind this is that there has to be some benefit for your boss other than making you happy. If he can't see the benefit, create a situation who's solution is the outcome you want to see. DISCLAIMER: I work with people like this, it's game of thrones level kool aid drinking. Know that you will make your life much more difficult and stressful, but it will work. So either do what the other guy said and be nice, build a genuine relationship with your boss where they TRUST you and your judgement. Or be prepared to go to war!
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
noir_lord 8y ago
> If you've ever said "this isn't my job" then you will have only an adversarial relationship. I say that all the time to other managers and occasionally to my direct manager. I'm the only software engineer on staff and we have a pisspoor IT provider, if it's windows I don't touch it because if I do I'll 'own' it and I'm busy enough.
- spenczar5 8y ago
  That sounds pretty adversarial, you may have demonstrated GP’s argument.
  - noir_lord 8y ago
    Learning to say no when it's not in your interests isn't adversarial, as an old boss put it pithily "If you don't respect your time no one else will". I was hired to write software, we pay a third party for desktop IT, if I then start doing IT technician tasks I'd be the most overpaid IT technician in the country and we'd still be paying for support.
sizzle 8y ago
H1b doesn't have much choice other than fake politeness.
- slededit 8y ago
  I was an H1-B for many years. Not true.
  - sizzle 8y ago
    Can you share your thoughts on the matter? Thanks.
shyn3 8y ago
I think 1 is the worst thing ever and results in everyone being underpaid. People need to grow a pair and say that's not my job, pay me more. It's why everyone is underpaid.

confiscate 8y ago

agree. Especially with #3 "understand what boss wants" From the way OP phrased the question, it sounded like the OP felt the manager "owed" the OP. As in, OP feels going to the conference is a must, "a given", a "constitutional right", and that the manager "wronged" him by not letting him go. It's a very childish way of viewing the world. As in, I deserve to go to Disneyland. My mom won't let me, so I will now get a "thick skin" to "manage her". An adult would be thinking of helping mom pay the bills. OP focuses on himself, on what he wants. There is no mention in the question of what the manager wants. It screams "me me me"

slededit 8y ago
The whole post is really about understanding what the boss wants, but #3 is something more specific so I want to iterate more on it: A lot of people want to help their boss and have a reciprocal relationship. But the mere desire is not enough - you have to have the "street smarts" to be trusted. If you don't know what sort of things will get your boss into trouble with their boss then even if you have a good relationship its unlikely you'll get significant leeway. You are likely to cause problems out of ignorance and a tight leash is to protect you from that.
greggarious 8y ago
>OP feels going to the conference is a must, "a given", a "constitutional right", and that the manager "wronged" him by not letting him go. It's a very childish way of viewing the world. OP's employer does not own them - they have a right to a private life. While they certainly could not want OP identifying themselves as an agent of their employer when giving a talk, OP is entitled to use their free time / vacation days as they see fit.
- frisco 8y ago
  That's true as long as they're not talking about their work at the conference. I assume they would be?
  - dagw 8y ago
    What does talking "about their work" actually entail?. I use Cython to do parts of my job. I've given talks about using Cython, drawing on experiences and knowledge gained while doing my job. Was that talking about work?
    - AznHisoka 8y ago
      The most interesting talks in conferences usually are case studies or explain how X was successfully used in a pratical project. It might be hard for OP to give such a talk unless he talked about his personal projects only. If he is just giving a generic talk about lessons learned without explaining the intricate war stories, thats a dull talk. Those are commodities.
      - raducu 8y ago
        Oh please, unless he developed something patent-worthy or something specific that could be used by direct competition then it's stupid not to let an employee talk about his (technical) work. In 99.99% the cases where a manager would be so impertinent as to decide upon how the personal time of an employee be used, it's because the manager is a shitty manager and the employee is completely worthless in the eyes of the manager. It would be a great insult if a manager treated me like that, because it would either imply that I'm too stupid not to know what I can and what I cannot reveal about my work or (the most likely reason) that even though the risk of my presentation hurting the company is minute, I'm so worthless that he thinks he can just tell me what I can and can't do in my free time.
AFNobody 8y ago
- The manager and you have an equal relationship if you are any good at your job as you can replace the manager if you want to. - This whole "you must submit to your boss" attitude beyond performing the assigned tasks is absurd.
- slededit 8y ago
  From the manager's POV, OP wants an exception to some policy (written or unwritten). If you want to get away with exceptions you need more than the normal adversarial relationship. There is a larger argument about whether you should even need an exception for this case, but the remedy for that is to find another job if you can't live with it. However your working life will be a lot easier if you learn to work around inadequacies in your chain of management - no place of work will ever be perfect.
  - meheleventyone 8y ago
    I think the thing that’s missing from this advice is a degree of compromise. Particularly if the policy is ‘unwritten’ aka the managers personal preference. Even with official policy many should be open to exceptions for good reason. As an employee you won’t get latitude without pushing for it and often for minor things forgiveness can be better than permission. Which isn’t to say it’s a good idea to be adversarial or sneaky but that there is really no need to be walked on either.
    - slededit 8y ago
      I didn't focus on OP because he already knows what he wants. Most people need help emphasizing with the other person not with their own wants/desires and compromise requires empathy. There are situations where someone is being over-accommodating and getting walked over but I didn't get that from the tone of the question. Asking forgiveness later is another advanced level topic but it generally goes hand in hand with a good working relationship that has already been established. Without that its a quick way to get reprimanded or fired. Remember, at the end of the day you are spending time on this specifically to get what you want. Its not an altruistic act for your manager.
doglover7869 8y ago
If the OP really wants to give a talk is because they are seeking for some kind of recognition or ego booster. This sounds very self centered and narcisistic.
- eropple 8y ago
  There is often a positive career boost from presenting at a conference, which I guess you could so weirdly and pejoratively spin as "recognition" or even "self-centered". But not looking out for oneself is stupid and managers who don't look out for their employees' career development are bad managers. Being weird and shitty and making claims of "narcissism" should come with evidence, or at least an argument.
KirinDave 8y ago
> As in, OP feels going to the conference is a must, "a given", a "constitutional right", and that the manager "wronged" him by not letting him go. Well, free assembly and association are in fact corrolary to "free speech." If an employee wants to go speak at a conference and the manager says, "Don't" then one of two things are happening: 0. The employer is abusive and undeserving. 1. The manager is attempting to take credit for the employee's work and should be called out. There really aren't other scenarios; there's no valid reason to attempt to sabotage someone's career arc. > OP focuses on himself, on what he wants. There is no mention in the question of what the manager wants. It screams "me me me" Well evidently the manager in question isn't going to help the OP with their career, so someone's gotta do that. When a company aligns its interests with the career growth of their employees, then its a win-win. If it's pitched as an adversarial relationship, then there will be a winner and a loser. I cannot imagine why a good manager or intelligently run company would encourage such an adversarial relationship; it'll cause massive turnover.

anitil 8y ago

This is just fantastic advice! Edit to add: If you're wondering why your supervisor might be reticent to allow you to talk I can think of a couple of potential reasons. - They're worried you'll unintentionally leak something - They're worried you'll get hired - They're threatened by you - They want you focused .... But the easiest way to find out is just to ask.

dagw 8y ago

That he can count on you to do what needs to be done. You will go out of your way for her. If you've ever said "this isn't my job" then you will have only an adversarial relationship. True to the extent that it is actually related to your job in a larger sense and doing so won't adversely affect your ability to do your 'real' job. Many managers will just keeping adding more and more responsibilities to their 'best' workers until they either start saying "no", quit or burn out, often without any malice or ill intent. That being said there are better ways of phrasing it than "this isn't my job". Saying something along the lines of "if I do that I won't have time to finish X by next Tuesday as I promised. It might be worth checking with Dave and his team if they have someone who can work on it. Otherwise I'll be happy to do it, as long as you're OK with pushing X back a week".

gtt 8y ago
>>Many managers will just keeping adding more and more responsibilities to their 'best' workers until they either start saying "no", quit or burn out, often without any malice or ill intent. I consider such people total failure as managers and try to avoid.
- bitshepherd 8y ago
  When I'm in the employee seat, I try to avoid managers that use blanket statements of people. The 'best' workers, where everyone -- including their manager -- goes when they need the hard questions answered, will usually quietly exit. They prefer not to cause a big scene, knowing their value. Value usually has a big catalyst in this, often appearing sudden and unexpected, exit. Some of these 'total failures' will go on to outdo even their own expectations. Some will do as you prophesize and 'fail' in their burnout, get fired and fade away. The strong ones will come back from it. People quit people, not jobs.
  - gtt 8y ago
    >People quit people, not jobs. To be fair, I've seen organizations so dysfunctional that even good managers could not protect their people from ambient shittiness. Below certain threshold there is no salvation for organization.

cmdkeen 8y ago

Good advice, I picked up some good phraseology for parts of it from the military: Your "1 up" and "2 up" (i.e your manager, and their manager) - what is your manager working towards, what is the context in which they are operating. Understanding that can play a large part in helping to exercise the good judgement, especially things to potentially flag up early. Appreciate they're context switching more frequently, launching straight into a complex issue you haven't discussed for a few days is going to cause a massive page fault. Give their brain a chance to get into gear, a quick refresher or catchup can help. Quick being 60 seconds.

oldsklgdfth 8y ago

This is gold and should be treated as such. Following these steps can make your work life very easy. However, if you really feel like you are right and your boss is wrong then I have some machiavellian advice for the workplace. 1. No one will give you anything because you just asked nicely. 2. Everyone is out for themselves, PERIOD. If you want more money, a new chair, better tools you have to create some pressure for your boss that can be eliviated by them giving you the thing you want. Example, you don't ask for more money, you make yourself semi-indespensible and then get another offer and say you're leaving. The same can be made of any situation. The main idea behind this is that there has to be some benefit for your boss other than making you happy. If he can't see the benefit, create a situation who's solution is the outcome you want to see. DISCLAIMER: I work with people like this, it's game of thrones level kool aid drinking. Know that you will make your life much more difficult and stressful, but it will work. So either do what the other guy said and be nice, build a genuine relationship with your boss where they TRUST you and your judgement. Or be prepared to go to war!

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

noir_lord 8y ago

> If you've ever said "this isn't my job" then you will have only an adversarial relationship. I say that all the time to other managers and occasionally to my direct manager. I'm the only software engineer on staff and we have a pisspoor IT provider, if it's windows I don't touch it because if I do I'll 'own' it and I'm busy enough.

spenczar5 8y ago
That sounds pretty adversarial, you may have demonstrated GP’s argument.
- noir_lord 8y ago
  Learning to say no when it's not in your interests isn't adversarial, as an old boss put it pithily "If you don't respect your time no one else will". I was hired to write software, we pay a third party for desktop IT, if I then start doing IT technician tasks I'd be the most overpaid IT technician in the country and we'd still be paying for support.

sizzle 8y ago

H1b doesn't have much choice other than fake politeness.

slededit 8y ago
I was an H1-B for many years. Not true.
- sizzle 8y ago
  Can you share your thoughts on the matter? Thanks.

shyn3 8y ago

I think 1 is the worst thing ever and results in everyone being underpaid. People need to grow a pair and say that's not my job, pay me more. It's why everyone is underpaid.