7 ms·

This should be eye-opening to a number of Europeans here on HN who, in the GDPR debate, basically dismissed any possible negative implications of the law by tru

This should be eye-opening to a number of Europeans here on HN who, in the GDPR debate, basically dismissed any possible negative implications of the law by trusting their politicians and basically saying “we don’t have to worry because this is not the United States”.

cyphar 8y ago
The problems with EU's incredibly overzealous copyright laws have been known and talked about for decades (in Germany if you take a photograph of the building the architect has some copyrights to that photo). It is a significant issue, and one that is probably perpetuated by the large EU publishing houses like Springer Verlag and so on. But I think that arguing that because of this issue, other unrelated legislation like GDPR is now somehow "tainted" is being a bit melodramatic. It's not. Privacy laws have been incredibly important in Europe's history and have also been a theme over many decades as well. Not to mention that GDPR was effectively an extension of previous privacy general directives passed in 1995 and earlier. Many non-EU countries also have EU-style privacy laws (like Switzerland).
- germanier 8y ago
  > in Germany if you take a photograph of the building the architect has some copyrights to that photo FWIW that is the case i'm almost every country (by the Berne Convention) and some are even more restrictive. See e.g. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Freedom_of_panorama https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Freedom_of_panora... for an overview of the international situation (but please don't depend on that for subtleties).
Angostura 8y ago
One is a reasonable set of regulations. The other is unreasonable. Reasonable people can see the difference.
gepi79 8y ago
> This should be eye-opening to a number of Europeans here on HN who, in the GDPR debate, basically dismissed any possible negative implications of the law by trusting their politicians and basically saying “we don’t have to worry because this is not the United States”. The EU is not a democracy. It does not matter what some Europeans think. It probably will not matter that some Europeans protest. The involved politicians decide what they want and probably nobody will know what politician voted for what. By far most Europeans have no idea what is going on. Like my entire family. Even if they did, they would not understand or trust some website like changecopyright.org that might as well be a criminal website that collects personal information or a website to support the nefarious intentions of evil Facebook or evil Google. The mainstream media are "protected" by these laws and will not speak about them or against them. Instead it is said that Google profits from the hard work of the European media and should pay for it. I guess the few owners of the media wrote the new copyright laws in the first place. P.S. The downvoters are ignorant as usual because they have nothing else to say. I have contacted my MEP. I have sent links to my (somewhat politically interested) family without getting any response.
- JumpCrisscross 8y ago
  > The EU is not a democracy > The downvoters are ignorant as usual because they have nothing else to say > I have contacted my MEP I didn’t downvote you, but I understand why others may have. You claim the EU isn’t a democracy and then mention reaching out to your MEP. Additionally, calling out those who disagree with you as “ignorant as usual” may be seen by some, myself included, as a premature conclusion.
  - gepi79 8y ago
    1) The national and european politicians have been already elected and they have been elected for different reasons than the copyright laws. The copyright laws are not decided based on a democratic referendum. 2) The EU is a complex organization and not just the democratically elected EU parliament. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_to_the_European_Parliament https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_to_the_European_Parl... https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/institutions-bodies_en https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/institutions-bodie... If the EU is a democracy or not can be very well debated and IMO it is not a democracy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy https://diem25.org/why-europes-treaties-are-failing-its-citizens/ https://diem25.org/why-europes-treaties-are-failing-its-citi... 3) Quote from https://juliareda.eu/eu-copyright-reform/ https://juliareda.eu/eu-copyright-reform/ : "EU member state governments approved the plans (while suggesting some changes) in the Council. Only the Parliament can stop them now." So other EU member states decide the copyright laws for my EU member state (Belgium).
    - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
      > The copyright laws are not decided based on a democratic referendum You're defining "democracy" as "direct democracy," which is inconsistent with the common use of the former.
      - gepi79 8y ago
        No, I am not defining democracy. I mention the reasons why the EU might not be a democracy and why the decisions regarding the new copyright laws are not very democratic. Even if the people had a choice (direct democracy) which they have not, the people would need to know about what is at stake by being honestly and completely and actively informed by EU and the mainstream media which they are not. It is contradictory or undemocratic to do both: - Say the EU is a democracy because the representatives in the EU parliament have been elected to make the decisions at their own will. - Say that people (opponents) should get involved to pressure or to beg the representatives to enforce the preferences of the loud opponents (probably a minority).
mtgx 8y ago
I disagree. I think GDPR is mostly a good law. This copyright law is mostly a terrible law, just like most new copyright laws, including those from the U.S. For instance, in the U.S. right now, they are working to make copyright terms 144 years and they also want to eliminate the DMCA protections, also making platforms liable for user content. So I wouldn't say this is a "EU-issue" alone. These copyright laws are getting pushed by the same type of companies everywhere (or even the exact same companies: Disney).

cyphar 8y ago

The problems with EU's incredibly overzealous copyright laws have been known and talked about for decades (in Germany if you take a photograph of the building the architect has some copyrights to that photo). It is a significant issue, and one that is probably perpetuated by the large EU publishing houses like Springer Verlag and so on. But I think that arguing that because of this issue, other unrelated legislation like GDPR is now somehow "tainted" is being a bit melodramatic. It's not. Privacy laws have been incredibly important in Europe's history and have also been a theme over many decades as well. Not to mention that GDPR was effectively an extension of previous privacy general directives passed in 1995 and earlier. Many non-EU countries also have EU-style privacy laws (like Switzerland).

germanier 8y ago
> in Germany if you take a photograph of the building the architect has some copyrights to that photo FWIW that is the case i'm almost every country (by the Berne Convention) and some are even more restrictive. See e.g. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Freedom_of_panorama https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Freedom_of_panora... for an overview of the international situation (but please don't depend on that for subtleties).

Angostura 8y ago

One is a reasonable set of regulations. The other is unreasonable. Reasonable people can see the difference.

gepi79 8y ago

> This should be eye-opening to a number of Europeans here on HN who, in the GDPR debate, basically dismissed any possible negative implications of the law by trusting their politicians and basically saying “we don’t have to worry because this is not the United States”. The EU is not a democracy. It does not matter what some Europeans think. It probably will not matter that some Europeans protest. The involved politicians decide what they want and probably nobody will know what politician voted for what. By far most Europeans have no idea what is going on. Like my entire family. Even if they did, they would not understand or trust some website like changecopyright.org that might as well be a criminal website that collects personal information or a website to support the nefarious intentions of evil Facebook or evil Google. The mainstream media are "protected" by these laws and will not speak about them or against them. Instead it is said that Google profits from the hard work of the European media and should pay for it. I guess the few owners of the media wrote the new copyright laws in the first place. P.S. The downvoters are ignorant as usual because they have nothing else to say. I have contacted my MEP. I have sent links to my (somewhat politically interested) family without getting any response.

JumpCrisscross 8y ago
> The EU is not a democracy > The downvoters are ignorant as usual because they have nothing else to say > I have contacted my MEP I didn’t downvote you, but I understand why others may have. You claim the EU isn’t a democracy and then mention reaching out to your MEP. Additionally, calling out those who disagree with you as “ignorant as usual” may be seen by some, myself included, as a premature conclusion.
- gepi79 8y ago
  1) The national and european politicians have been already elected and they have been elected for different reasons than the copyright laws. The copyright laws are not decided based on a democratic referendum. 2) The EU is a complex organization and not just the democratically elected EU parliament. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_to_the_European_Parliament https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_to_the_European_Parl... https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/institutions-bodies_en https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/institutions-bodie... If the EU is a democracy or not can be very well debated and IMO it is not a democracy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy https://diem25.org/why-europes-treaties-are-failing-its-citizens/ https://diem25.org/why-europes-treaties-are-failing-its-citi... 3) Quote from https://juliareda.eu/eu-copyright-reform/ https://juliareda.eu/eu-copyright-reform/ : "EU member state governments approved the plans (while suggesting some changes) in the Council. Only the Parliament can stop them now." So other EU member states decide the copyright laws for my EU member state (Belgium).
  - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
    > The copyright laws are not decided based on a democratic referendum You're defining "democracy" as "direct democracy," which is inconsistent with the common use of the former.
    - gepi79 8y ago
      No, I am not defining democracy. I mention the reasons why the EU might not be a democracy and why the decisions regarding the new copyright laws are not very democratic. Even if the people had a choice (direct democracy) which they have not, the people would need to know about what is at stake by being honestly and completely and actively informed by EU and the mainstream media which they are not. It is contradictory or undemocratic to do both: - Say the EU is a democracy because the representatives in the EU parliament have been elected to make the decisions at their own will. - Say that people (opponents) should get involved to pressure or to beg the representatives to enforce the preferences of the loud opponents (probably a minority).

mtgx 8y ago

I disagree. I think GDPR is mostly a good law. This copyright law is mostly a terrible law, just like most new copyright laws, including those from the U.S. For instance, in the U.S. right now, they are working to make copyright terms 144 years and they also want to eliminate the DMCA protections, also making platforms liable for user content. So I wouldn't say this is a "EU-issue" alone. These copyright laws are getting pushed by the same type of companies everywhere (or even the exact same companies: Disney).