7 ms·

My employer just increased their family leave from 12 weeks to 20 weeks, which is a great perk. These days nobody seems to differentiate from maternity vs pater

by rconti 8y ago

My employer just increased their family leave from 12 weeks to 20 weeks, which is a great perk. These days nobody seems to differentiate from maternity vs paternity leave, which is a great idea because, aside from the value it provides fathers, it also gets rid of the idea that the mother should get more time because mothers should be more involved. (alas, you can argue that it ignores the physical sacrifices the mother makes, but as long as there is parity by raising men's leave up rather than reducing a woman's leave, who can argue with it?) I don't have kids but I've often thought if I could get 6-12 months off for having a kid it would change the equation from impossible burden to work around to actually a pleasurable experience to learn/grow/bond/etc.

monocasa 8y ago
Additionally, equal paternity leave is a great thing for women's rights too. When employers will see the same leave for their employees when they have a child regardless of gender, then there's less of a rational reason to discriminate against women in the hiring process.
- GuiA 8y ago
  This is very important. I once worked for the CEO of a startup who told me that he was hesitant to hire women because if they got pregnant “it’d totally screw us over”.
  - CalRobert 8y ago
    This CEO should suffer legal consequences.
    - Simon_says 8y ago
      No, we should change the law on maternity leave.
    - to_bpr 8y ago
      If a startup is running on tight runway then female staff getting pregnant could be massively detrimental. In many civilized parts of the world, a female employee getting pregnant will mean disruption during the pregnancy to accommodate doctor's visits and health issues, and then months of paid leave PLUS having to pay to backfill their position with a temp, plus the costs of recruiting and ramping up said temp. That's a huge hit for an early stage startup to take.
      - fjones11 8y ago
        Not sure I could disagree more with this. (Not to mention, this is exactly the kind of attitude that makes it hard for women to work in tech.) There are regular doctor's visits during pregnancy, yes, but that's a few hours a month. Surely even the smallest startups can absorb that kind of "disruption". And typically, since parents know well in advance when and how much leave they'll need to take, the team can plan around the leave and how to take over that work in someone's absence. In most cases, you'll have 5-6 months to prepare. I work for a small startup - fewer than 20 employees - and two of our team members are married. They had a baby and were both out for month (the mom took more time after that), and everything continued to function just fine because we'd planned for it. And if we needed them, they were just an email or text away. Finally, parents can be some of the most efficient workers on a team, and are great candidates for startups. They are experienced in time management and balancing multiple tasks and stakeholders.
      - amyjess 8y ago
        Honestly, this just fuels my dislike of startups. Startup culture is toxic by nature. My advice is this: companies need to suck it up. We live in a society with rules and laws for a reason. If your business can't exist under those rules and laws, then it doesn't belong in society. Ventures that are detrimental to society simply shouldn't be allowed.
        pancakes123 8y ago
        Please don't think OP's comment is representative of other startups. It isn't.
        8y ago
  - pancakes123 8y ago
    Like how you said you "once" worked for this CEO. Doesn't seem the kind of leader I'd want to work for either.
cimmanom 8y ago
That extra paternity leave can give the dad the opportunity to be around to assist the mom while she's recovering from the birth - which helps her too. (And recovering emotionally as well as physically - post-partum depression can be paralyzing.) It's just too bad that there's no way to offer an equivalent benefit for women without partners to provide them the same sort of support.
- mi100hael 8y ago
  I don't follow what you're lamenting. That women without partners lack partners?
  - cimmanom 8y ago
    I guess I'm saying that the only women that paternity leave is unfair to in any way are those who lack partners. Not that there's any simple solution to that. Maybe in a society that believed in social safety nets some sort of home aide could be available during the first few weeks.
    - chrisseaton 8y ago
      > I guess I'm saying that the only women that paternity leave is unfair to in any way are those who lack partners. It's not partner leave, it's paternity leave. > some sort of home aide could be available during the first few weeks Men don't take paternity leave solely to be 'home aide' - they're taking the time to bond with their new children.
      - cimmanom 8y ago
        No. For most women it's awesome that men get paternity leave. @rconti suggested that equal paternity leave might be unfair because of the additional physical costs that women pay to give birth; I was disagreeing with that, saying that if anything paternity adds value for those women. Paternity leave even adds value for women who will never have children, because it undercuts any argument that prefers hiring men over women because of parental leave. The only women it doesn't add much value for are those without partners. "Unfair" is probably the wrong term. They're simply put at a disadvantage relative to other mothers as a result.
aikinai 8y ago
Google has a cool system where everyone with a new child gets (very long and equal) parental leave. If you physically give birth, you get extra time for preparation and recovery (e.g. men and women adopting, etc. don’t get it). I think this is a good way to recognize the extra burden of parents who give birth while being fair on the parenting front.
- sjg007 8y ago
  Seems weird to discriminate against adoptive parents... I understand the reasoning but seems weird. It would probably be better to have a medical policy applicable to everyone.
  - pastor_williams 8y ago
    Adopted parents aren't excluded. You get the leave whether you are becoming a parent through adoption, surrogacy, child birth or fostering.
  - fjsolwmv 8y ago
    Adoption isn't a debilitating medical condition so why would you get medical leave for it in addition to parental leave?
  - koliber 8y ago
    I think you are framing it incorrectly as discrimination. If one stretches such an analogy, one could reason that paid sick leave is discriminating against healthy people. Not many people would agree with that one. As you've stated, a sensible medical policy for everyone would be good. I would imagine that Google has a one.
    - workinthehead 8y ago
      Absolutely I agree that paid sick leave is discriminating against healthy people. If you're going to pay people to not work, everyone should be equally eligible.
  - 8y ago
dragonwriter 8y ago
> alas, you can argue that it ignores the physical sacrifices the mother makes Which is why California provides both equal paid bonding leave for parents (biological or adoptive) and paid pregnancy disability leave based on actual disability (with standard rules for uncomplicated cases) for those carrying a child.

by rconti 8y ago

monocasa 8y ago

Additionally, equal paternity leave is a great thing for women's rights too. When employers will see the same leave for their employees when they have a child regardless of gender, then there's less of a rational reason to discriminate against women in the hiring process.

GuiA 8y ago
This is very important. I once worked for the CEO of a startup who told me that he was hesitant to hire women because if they got pregnant “it’d totally screw us over”.
- CalRobert 8y ago
  This CEO should suffer legal consequences.
  - Simon_says 8y ago
    No, we should change the law on maternity leave.
  - to_bpr 8y ago
    If a startup is running on tight runway then female staff getting pregnant could be massively detrimental. In many civilized parts of the world, a female employee getting pregnant will mean disruption during the pregnancy to accommodate doctor's visits and health issues, and then months of paid leave PLUS having to pay to backfill their position with a temp, plus the costs of recruiting and ramping up said temp. That's a huge hit for an early stage startup to take.
    - fjones11 8y ago
      Not sure I could disagree more with this. (Not to mention, this is exactly the kind of attitude that makes it hard for women to work in tech.) There are regular doctor's visits during pregnancy, yes, but that's a few hours a month. Surely even the smallest startups can absorb that kind of "disruption". And typically, since parents know well in advance when and how much leave they'll need to take, the team can plan around the leave and how to take over that work in someone's absence. In most cases, you'll have 5-6 months to prepare. I work for a small startup - fewer than 20 employees - and two of our team members are married. They had a baby and were both out for month (the mom took more time after that), and everything continued to function just fine because we'd planned for it. And if we needed them, they were just an email or text away. Finally, parents can be some of the most efficient workers on a team, and are great candidates for startups. They are experienced in time management and balancing multiple tasks and stakeholders.
    - amyjess 8y ago
      Honestly, this just fuels my dislike of startups. Startup culture is toxic by nature. My advice is this: companies need to suck it up. We live in a society with rules and laws for a reason. If your business can't exist under those rules and laws, then it doesn't belong in society. Ventures that are detrimental to society simply shouldn't be allowed.
      - pancakes123 8y ago
        Please don't think OP's comment is representative of other startups. It isn't.
      - 8y ago
- pancakes123 8y ago
  Like how you said you "once" worked for this CEO. Doesn't seem the kind of leader I'd want to work for either.

cimmanom 8y ago

That extra paternity leave can give the dad the opportunity to be around to assist the mom while she's recovering from the birth - which helps her too. (And recovering emotionally as well as physically - post-partum depression can be paralyzing.) It's just too bad that there's no way to offer an equivalent benefit for women without partners to provide them the same sort of support.

mi100hael 8y ago
I don't follow what you're lamenting. That women without partners lack partners?
- cimmanom 8y ago
  I guess I'm saying that the only women that paternity leave is unfair to in any way are those who lack partners. Not that there's any simple solution to that. Maybe in a society that believed in social safety nets some sort of home aide could be available during the first few weeks.
  - chrisseaton 8y ago
    > I guess I'm saying that the only women that paternity leave is unfair to in any way are those who lack partners. It's not partner leave, it's paternity leave. > some sort of home aide could be available during the first few weeks Men don't take paternity leave solely to be 'home aide' - they're taking the time to bond with their new children.
    - cimmanom 8y ago
      No. For most women it's awesome that men get paternity leave. @rconti suggested that equal paternity leave might be unfair because of the additional physical costs that women pay to give birth; I was disagreeing with that, saying that if anything paternity adds value for those women. Paternity leave even adds value for women who will never have children, because it undercuts any argument that prefers hiring men over women because of parental leave. The only women it doesn't add much value for are those without partners. "Unfair" is probably the wrong term. They're simply put at a disadvantage relative to other mothers as a result.

aikinai 8y ago

Google has a cool system where everyone with a new child gets (very long and equal) parental leave. If you physically give birth, you get extra time for preparation and recovery (e.g. men and women adopting, etc. don’t get it). I think this is a good way to recognize the extra burden of parents who give birth while being fair on the parenting front.

sjg007 8y ago
Seems weird to discriminate against adoptive parents... I understand the reasoning but seems weird. It would probably be better to have a medical policy applicable to everyone.
- pastor_williams 8y ago
  Adopted parents aren't excluded. You get the leave whether you are becoming a parent through adoption, surrogacy, child birth or fostering.
- fjsolwmv 8y ago
  Adoption isn't a debilitating medical condition so why would you get medical leave for it in addition to parental leave?
- koliber 8y ago
  I think you are framing it incorrectly as discrimination. If one stretches such an analogy, one could reason that paid sick leave is discriminating against healthy people. Not many people would agree with that one. As you've stated, a sensible medical policy for everyone would be good. I would imagine that Google has a one.
  - workinthehead 8y ago
    Absolutely I agree that paid sick leave is discriminating against healthy people. If you're going to pay people to not work, everyone should be equally eligible.
- 8y ago

dragonwriter 8y ago

> alas, you can argue that it ignores the physical sacrifices the mother makes Which is why California provides both equal paid bonding leave for parents (biological or adoptive) and paid pregnancy disability leave based on actual disability (with standard rules for uncomplicated cases) for those carrying a child.