5 ms·

I was trying to understand andrewclunn now dead comment below. Basically he was saying there was no need for the author of the article (not the study) to write

by delbel 8y ago

I was trying to understand andrewclunn now dead comment below. Basically he was saying there was no need for the author of the article (not the study) to write "toxic masculinity" narrative. When I clicked on the PDF, to scan for the word "toxic" I was unable to open the PDF. Did the author of the article Jon McBride artificially put this narrative spin on the study? If so, I don't understand why somebody would do this. Studies like this bring us wonderful news, there is no need to add negative connotation. Sure the tone of andrewclunn comment is debatable, but given he is a father, I think he is entitled to be upset about this because I am also. What do you think HN.

evilantnie 8y ago
I don't see the comment you're referring to, but McBride was quoting one of the authors of the study. Technically this isn't "spin", Toxic Masculinity and Hegemonic Masculinity are both fields of study in psychology having to do with promotion of dominance and violence. I think both fields influenced this study. It looks like they developed a Parent-Child-Conflict scale that included spanking, hitting, or threatening physical harm to measure some of this, but the study is much more broader than just this.
- mi100hael 8y ago
  Spanking is considered to be a "toxic" display of masculinity these days?
  - zxcmx 8y ago
    It’s against the law in New Zealand for example. You may restrain a child for their safety but the use of force for “parental correction” is treated as assault and can be prosecuted. The police are encouraged to apply discretion.
    - germinalphrase 8y ago
      Generally speaking, It is not illegal in the US unless you leave visible marks (e.g. bruises). Even then, it would be reported but little action would be taken unless there are additional issues with the child’s safety. It is still common in many places for a “whooping” to be used to keep kids in line.
      - mcny 8y ago
        I do not support criminal prosecution for parental spanking but I consider you've already failed as a parent if you need to "whoop" a child. In another world where child welfare services have a better reputation, I might even suggest that such parents should be forcefully relieved from parental duties.
    - mi100hael 8y ago
      That's pretty absurd. There's a huge difference between smacking a kid's backside as punishment and actually causing physical harm. Furthermore, huge swaths of the population have grown up with the occasional spanking and somehow managed to avoid PTSD or other emotional/mental problems. Labeling it a "toxic masculine" practice is idiocy.
- delbel 8y ago
  I had to look up Hegemonic Masculinity, and I think I definitely know somebody with this trait (if it is valid) -- one of my employees. I hired him specifically to deal with problems with other employees as a manager. Part of his job he leaves early to coach soccer (which they are doing good, going to state). His children are great and he is completely engaged on a daily basis (they all live on a large farm, if that makes this different) so this is inconsistent with what I know. I wonder how they screened fathers and categorized them, I can't find the actual text of the study.
  - fjsolwmv 8y ago
    Huh? How is coaching soccer incompatible with spanking?
- ravenstine 8y ago
  > Toxic Masculinity and Hegemonic Masculinity are both fields of study in psychology Can you cite that? If that's how today's psychology is defining things, then that's a sign that field is totally screwed.
tgb 8y ago
I don't follow you, the article author is quoting the study's co-author when toxic masculinity is brought up.
dsfyu404ed 8y ago
Probably something to do with this: >The study also showed a correlation between fathers who exhibit negative aspects of traditional masculinity and fathers who are less involved with their children. >“It’s important to understand what masculinity is and is not,” Shafer said. “In some circles, when people hear terms like hegemonic or toxic masculinity, they think those are attacking all men. Not so. There are some very beneficial aspects of masculinity — being goal-oriented or being loyal, for example. However, we are talking about more problematic aspects of masculinity — like aggression, detached relationships, not showing emotion and failing to ask for help. These are negative aspects of traditional masculinity, and our research suggests it hurts families.” Some of that I take issue with as well. Being able to seriously turn down your emotions or at least not show them is a really useful skill in situations where emotions run high. I would certainly have no problem if my own children (regardless of gender) were less emotional, I think it's probably better than being the same distance from "average" in the other direction.
- yedava 8y ago
  I don't think authors mean that men need to be "emotional" all the time. They seem to be saying that being detached and hiding emotions prevents men from seeking help or forming stronger relationships.
  - theatrics109 8y ago
    This idea comes from a stereotypically female perspective. Men typically form stronger relationships with other men through shared struggles -- playing on a team together, going hunting, building something, etc. Working together and not complaining builds trust. To say that the female approach of long emotional talks and displays is objectively superior is not justified. Ask one of your friends who works in a female dominated workplace what it's like. They might prefer a bit more stoicism, less emotional displays, and more working together without complaint.
    - fjsolwmv 8y ago
      Being physically aggressive is not a more healthy way to handle emotions than acknowledging emotions exist. The rest of your post is non sequitur. Improving the unhealthy parts of male life does not mean making everyone stereotypically female.
Yetanfou 8y ago
I think this field - sociology - and the humanities in general have become so much politicised that it is very hard to find articles on subjects like these which do not read like an action plan for some or other political group. While I could not get the article through Wiley I did find it on Sci-Hub: http://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.1111/jomf.12476 http://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.1111/jomf.12476 And yes, with lines like "... Given that hegemonic masculinity persists as the dominant gender norm in the United States, the results from this study suggest that further increasing father involvement may require changing the current gendered structure of society ..." it could just as well have been a point of action for some feminist organisation as a research article. This in return will cause the article to be dismissed out of hand by those on 'the other side' - often describing themselves as being 'red-pilled' after Cassie Jaye's documentary 'The Red Pill' on the subject of modern feminism versus the men's rights movement [1]. In my own opinion this article does not pass the muster as it tries to fit the concept of fatherhood in an ideological framework which only fits those who are already on board. While the actual term 'toxic masculinity' is not used it is clear that the concept is seen as valid and as a driving factor behind the supposed failure to be 'good fathers'. In short, it tries to portray a causality between the acceptance of 'modern gender ideology' (in contrast to 'traditional gender ideology') and good fathering. This is a political standpoint, not a scientific conclusion and as such this article and the conclusions drawn in it lose their relevance. [1] http://theredpillmovie.com/ http://theredpillmovie.com/
- devmunchies 8y ago
  > I think this field - sociology - and the humanities in general have become so much politicised ... it could just as well have been a point of action for some feminist organisation as a research article You may be right on the whole, but this out of BYU—one of the most conservative and family-oriented universities in the US.
- ponderatul 8y ago
  I can't understand why your comment has been downvoted.
  - 8y ago

by delbel 8y ago

evilantnie 8y ago

I don't see the comment you're referring to, but McBride was quoting one of the authors of the study. Technically this isn't "spin", Toxic Masculinity and Hegemonic Masculinity are both fields of study in psychology having to do with promotion of dominance and violence. I think both fields influenced this study. It looks like they developed a Parent-Child-Conflict scale that included spanking, hitting, or threatening physical harm to measure some of this, but the study is much more broader than just this.

mi100hael 8y ago
Spanking is considered to be a "toxic" display of masculinity these days?
- zxcmx 8y ago
  It’s against the law in New Zealand for example. You may restrain a child for their safety but the use of force for “parental correction” is treated as assault and can be prosecuted. The police are encouraged to apply discretion.
  - germinalphrase 8y ago
    Generally speaking, It is not illegal in the US unless you leave visible marks (e.g. bruises). Even then, it would be reported but little action would be taken unless there are additional issues with the child’s safety. It is still common in many places for a “whooping” to be used to keep kids in line.
    - mcny 8y ago
      I do not support criminal prosecution for parental spanking but I consider you've already failed as a parent if you need to "whoop" a child. In another world where child welfare services have a better reputation, I might even suggest that such parents should be forcefully relieved from parental duties.
  - mi100hael 8y ago
    That's pretty absurd. There's a huge difference between smacking a kid's backside as punishment and actually causing physical harm. Furthermore, huge swaths of the population have grown up with the occasional spanking and somehow managed to avoid PTSD or other emotional/mental problems. Labeling it a "toxic masculine" practice is idiocy.
delbel 8y ago
I had to look up Hegemonic Masculinity, and I think I definitely know somebody with this trait (if it is valid) -- one of my employees. I hired him specifically to deal with problems with other employees as a manager. Part of his job he leaves early to coach soccer (which they are doing good, going to state). His children are great and he is completely engaged on a daily basis (they all live on a large farm, if that makes this different) so this is inconsistent with what I know. I wonder how they screened fathers and categorized them, I can't find the actual text of the study.
- fjsolwmv 8y ago
  Huh? How is coaching soccer incompatible with spanking?
ravenstine 8y ago
> Toxic Masculinity and Hegemonic Masculinity are both fields of study in psychology Can you cite that? If that's how today's psychology is defining things, then that's a sign that field is totally screwed.

tgb 8y ago

I don't follow you, the article author is quoting the study's co-author when toxic masculinity is brought up.

dsfyu404ed 8y ago

Probably something to do with this: >The study also showed a correlation between fathers who exhibit negative aspects of traditional masculinity and fathers who are less involved with their children. >“It’s important to understand what masculinity is and is not,” Shafer said. “In some circles, when people hear terms like hegemonic or toxic masculinity, they think those are attacking all men. Not so. There are some very beneficial aspects of masculinity — being goal-oriented or being loyal, for example. However, we are talking about more problematic aspects of masculinity — like aggression, detached relationships, not showing emotion and failing to ask for help. These are negative aspects of traditional masculinity, and our research suggests it hurts families.” Some of that I take issue with as well. Being able to seriously turn down your emotions or at least not show them is a really useful skill in situations where emotions run high. I would certainly have no problem if my own children (regardless of gender) were less emotional, I think it's probably better than being the same distance from "average" in the other direction.

yedava 8y ago
I don't think authors mean that men need to be "emotional" all the time. They seem to be saying that being detached and hiding emotions prevents men from seeking help or forming stronger relationships.
- theatrics109 8y ago
  This idea comes from a stereotypically female perspective. Men typically form stronger relationships with other men through shared struggles -- playing on a team together, going hunting, building something, etc. Working together and not complaining builds trust. To say that the female approach of long emotional talks and displays is objectively superior is not justified. Ask one of your friends who works in a female dominated workplace what it's like. They might prefer a bit more stoicism, less emotional displays, and more working together without complaint.
  - fjsolwmv 8y ago
    Being physically aggressive is not a more healthy way to handle emotions than acknowledging emotions exist. The rest of your post is non sequitur. Improving the unhealthy parts of male life does not mean making everyone stereotypically female.

Yetanfou 8y ago

I think this field - sociology - and the humanities in general have become so much politicised that it is very hard to find articles on subjects like these which do not read like an action plan for some or other political group. While I could not get the article through Wiley I did find it on Sci-Hub: http://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.1111/jomf.12476 http://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.1111/jomf.12476 And yes, with lines like "... Given that hegemonic masculinity persists as the dominant gender norm in the United States, the results from this study suggest that further increasing father involvement may require changing the current gendered structure of society ..." it could just as well have been a point of action for some feminist organisation as a research article. This in return will cause the article to be dismissed out of hand by those on 'the other side' - often describing themselves as being 'red-pilled' after Cassie Jaye's documentary 'The Red Pill' on the subject of modern feminism versus the men's rights movement [1]. In my own opinion this article does not pass the muster as it tries to fit the concept of fatherhood in an ideological framework which only fits those who are already on board. While the actual term 'toxic masculinity' is not used it is clear that the concept is seen as valid and as a driving factor behind the supposed failure to be 'good fathers'. In short, it tries to portray a causality between the acceptance of 'modern gender ideology' (in contrast to 'traditional gender ideology') and good fathering. This is a political standpoint, not a scientific conclusion and as such this article and the conclusions drawn in it lose their relevance. [1] http://theredpillmovie.com/ http://theredpillmovie.com/

devmunchies 8y ago
> I think this field - sociology - and the humanities in general have become so much politicised ... it could just as well have been a point of action for some feminist organisation as a research article You may be right on the whole, but this out of BYU—one of the most conservative and family-oriented universities in the US.
ponderatul 8y ago
I can't understand why your comment has been downvoted.
- 8y ago