16 ms·

I think the way to think about all of these Apple products is through the lens of what I believe their long-term strategy to be. Apple wants to onboard people

by SiVal 8y ago

I think the way to think about all of these Apple products is through the lens of what I believe their long-term strategy to be. Apple wants to onboard people into the new Apple ecosystem, which is iToys and backend services. They believe this will be better for you, not just for them. They control the iOS-based world in a way they could never control "computers". They're trying to get as many people as they can into their new Disneyland-ish ecosystem, where everything you do is approved and monitored and everything you buy is bought through them. The low-end Mac seems to only matter now as a source of low-end users, who need carrot and stick to move them off Mac and onto iOS, so low-end Macs won't get better but low-end iOS devices will. I suspect we'll see touchscreen laptops running iOS pretty soon, and that will signal the end of low-end Macs. The high-end Mac users have a better story, because Apple needs developers for their ecosystem, and those people need good tools. I can't imagine Apple being interested in developing dev tools that run on non-Apple devices, and I think they'll want an absolutely guaranteed source of computers with whatever features are needed to develop the best stuff for their ecosystem, so I think a high-end Mac product line will live on with each new version being a bit more iOS-like. If they want to keep the lockdown on iOS while retaining full power to develop for it, they will probably have to keep the less-locked-down macOS going for dev machines for a long time, but things like the Mac Mini have no place in this picture.

paulcole 8y ago
Disneyland is fun! What’s wrong with that? Most people aren’t doing anything more than having fun with their “iToys”. I like having fun and I love my iPad. I only ever touch a computer at work and that’s the way I like it.
- pentae 8y ago
  It's fun but you can't leave the park. If I want to install a 3rd party app on my $1100 iPhone without using the App store i'm shit out of luck. I think it's unacceptable that if I'm paying that much for a phone I have to go to a different brand to get that freedom and flexibility. The App store is great but the consumer should have a choice to install apps without it despite the potential dangers. As an adult, if I want to install a Youporn or casino app on my phone I don't need Apple telling me that's not allowed.
  - eric-hu 8y ago
    That level of lockdown is a feature. I would like more freedom and control in iOS too sometimes, but I've gotten used to it. I'm still on my first iPhone (6s) and I'm happy with it for what it does. Contrast this with Androids. Every vendor has their own variation of the OS, APIs are inconsistently implemented across devices, and it's a good bet that the phone will stop receiving OS upgrades in 2 years. I don't think iOS is perfect by any means, but I take Apple's Draconian measures along with the the long term stability and higher app quality. It's the best mobile OS on the market for me. I still won't get the iPhone X because of the price and face ID replacing touch ID. I'd probably pay to replace the battery and use this phone for another 2 years. It's nice that I can reasonably count on that.
    - pentae 8y ago
      Well it's not a feature for me. Not sure how allowing vendors to install apps onto iOS without the app store (and having a few warning popups) has anything to do with OS fragmentation on Android. Isn't it an interesting coincidence how those 'draconian measures' you mention that are so great have a side effect of being really, really good for Apples business.
  - paulcole 8y ago
    I pay Apple $800 for an iPad so there won't be Youporn or casino apps in their app store. Either go to Android (no clue what their free for all store allows) or visit the website. The closed system is what I want and I'm happy to pay a premium for it.
    - michaelmrose 8y ago
      You agree with what is presently censored are you sure that this will always be so? If you want a few players to control the gateway to most future communications and culture so that your kids will have to work harder to see boobs online then i question your judgment.
      - paulcole 8y ago
derefr 8y ago
What about the low-end Mac (e.g. the Mac Mini) as a "dip your toe in" approach to inviting developers into the macOS/iOS ecosystem? That's always what I understood it as before—it was never an HTPC, and regular users always preferred either AIOs like the iMac, or notebooks. The Mac Mini was specifically the "you already have a Windows workstation, now unplug it and plug its peripherals into this to try out developing on a Mac" experience.
- jen729w 8y ago
  I have one - let me see, a mid-2010 - sitting under my desk. It's my media server, primarily, but I use it for other bits and pieces. It's useful to have an always-on Mac in the house, given that my primary machine is now a MacBook Pro. It got an SSD a few years ago, prolonging its life. It's probably been turned on for 90% of the time since I got it. Current uptime: 26 days. If they release an update, I'll probably buy one.
haberman 8y ago
> I suspect we'll see touchscreen laptops running iOS pretty soon Seems unlikely. From a 2016 interview: > MacOS is meant to be operated with a mouse and keyboard. Apple says it doesn’t make sense to lean forward to touch your Mac screen. An iOS-powered iPad works best with fingers, which means you can just lean back while using it. > “We did spend a great deal of time looking at this a number of years ago and came to the conclusion that to make the best personal computer, you can’t try to turn MacOS into an iPhone,” Schiller says. “Conversely, you can’t turn iOS into a Mac…. So each one is best at what they’re meant to be — and we take what makes sense to add from each, but without fundamentally changing them so they’re compromised.” --https://www.cnet.com/special-reports/does-the-mac-still-matter/ https://www.cnet.com/special-reports/does-the-mac-still-matt...
- jpetso 8y ago
  Well, they have the iPad Pro with keyboard cover already. Who's to say that they couldn't make that into an actual laptop product, replacing their lower-end macOS devices? Also, none of your quotes mention the impossibility of making an iOS device with yet another different form factor. It merely says that they won't merge the two OSes. Plus, even if that weren't the case, it wouldn't be the first time that Apple went back on a public statement while rebranding the backtracking as the invention of a whole new computing paradigm.
  - dm319 8y ago
    not an apple user, but can you get unix commandline tools on iOS like you can with termux on Android?
    - kgc 8y ago
      Yes.
- empath75 8y ago
  Actions speak louder than words. They’ve barely done anything with macOS in years.
Doctor_Fegg 8y ago
> The low-end Mac seems to only matter now as a source of low-end users, who need carrot and stick to move them off Mac and onto iOS Cheapest price for a prepaid iPhone SE right now: £244 Cheapest price for a Mac Mini right now: £479 ...define "low-end"? [Prices from Google Shopping] The Mac mini is a great machine for iOS development; I do all mine on one.
- bananaboy 8y ago
  They feel so slow though, do you find that? I use a late 2014 model as a build machine. It's a Core i5 2.6 Ghz with 8 Gb RAM and a regular HDD, and it takes ~20 mins average to build a not very large Unity game. The last build Xcode took 7m 45s and exporting the IPA took 9m 17s. I haven't profiled where all that time is going yet. Maybe I should have sprung for the Fusion Drive and i7.
  - MR4D 8y ago
    I concur. I’m completely convinced that my 12 inch iPad Pro blows away my 2014 Mac mini in every respect. Mac mini has 8GB ram, and an SSD. Still doesn’t feel nearly as snappy as my iPad. My 2010 MBAir is even worse.
  - nicky0 8y ago
    Get an SSD in there. It'a not too hard to fit it yourself using an iFixit guide.
  - Doctor_Fegg 8y ago
    Mine's late 2014 too (2.8 i5 rather than 2.6) but the Fusion Drive makes a massive difference - can't recommend it enough. (That said, I'm not using Unity.)
    - bananaboy 8y ago
      Yeah thanks I think I'll stick in an SSD. It's not even the Unity part which is particularly slow though, it's the Xcode and exporting to IPA parts.
deltron3030 8y ago
> The high-end Mac users have a better story, because Apple needs developers for their ecosystem, and those people need good tools. I can't imagine Apple being interested in developing dev tools that run on non-Apple devices They could turn macOS into an exclusive dev tool for their ecosystem. Currently it's basically the main dev platform for rivaling ecosystems like the web, and the companies in that space that compete with Apple. A switch of the desktop architecture (they already announced that this will happen in the coming years) might enforce the apptore on iOS as well, and destroy the homebrew and third party scene.
chaostheory 8y ago
> I suspect we'll see touchscreen laptops running iOS pretty soon Doesn't this already exist as the iPad Pro? Multitasking was introduced with the product line. They even heavily pushed the keyboard and pen. https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MJYR2LL/A/smart-keyboard-for-129-inch-ipad-pro-us-english https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MJYR2LL/A/smart-keyboard-...
- tsmarsh 8y ago
  I use my ipad pro as a laptop replacement. It works better than I expected except for a few quirks around keyboard support in apps like safari and aws workspaces which are irritating enough to make coding bear impossible. But in many ways its better than a laptop, especially around note taking and reading.
  - TheOtherHobbes 8y ago
    For most content dev, especially media creation, productivity is proportional to screen area. The iPad Pro is fine for limited tasks, including simple media creation. But there’s no way anyone is going to want to edit a Hollywood movie or record and mix a complex album on one.
    - chaostheory 8y ago
      This is a good summary of what can be done with an iPad Pro. https://paulstamatiou.com/made-on-an-ipad-pro/ https://paulstamatiou.com/made-on-an-ipad-pro/ It's pretty in line with your opinion; just a lot more detail.
on_and_off 8y ago
>They control the iOS-based world in a way they could never control "computers". They're trying to get as many people as they can into their new Disneyland-ish ecosystem, where everything you do is approved and monitored and everything you buy is bought through them. This sounds so dystopic. I hope that being able to publish software without having to bow to a gatekeeper won't become a thing of the past.
- SiVal 8y ago
  Not just "publishing" software but even writing private software for your own, and your friends' & families', devices is something we can't take for granted. For personal and (private) family use, I gave up on trying to do native apps for iPhone and decided to learn how to do whatever was possible with web apps. And if iOS Safari (Apple's "gatekeeper" of last resort) falls too far behind, I'll take myself and the whole gang I serve as "IT installer, fixer, and advisor" for right out of Apple land.
  - fingerlocks 8y ago
    A hundred bucks a year and put your friends and family on TestFlight. Completely private, no publishing required.
- pjmlp 8y ago
  Then better switch to a free UNIX clone. As Mojave is getting iOS security model, Windows is merging the Win32 into UWP, ChromeOS and Android are turning into one OS, and who knows what they would do with Fucshia.
  - sandbags 8y ago
    What do you mean by “Mojave is getting iOS security model”. What I’ve seen announced is that, as of 10.14, the system will ask the user when an app first wants access to, e.g., microphone or camera. Do you mean something else?
    - 8y ago
simonh 8y ago
They don't refresh the hardware aggressively because they just flat out don't need to. It's not about running down the Mac, if that was their aim they wouldn't have spent tons of engineering resources on the redesigned super-slim MBPs with new keyboard design and brand new whizzy touch bar. Those features may or may be problematic or even flat out mistakes, but they're not a sign of lazy lack of focus. The thing is the vast majority of Mac customers don't know what a clock speed is, don't know the difference between RAM memory and Flash memory, and don't care, and are buying these things by the truckload. Apple has always been tardy about hardware updates. It looks like right now they really have actually dropped the ball, and at last they recognised that with the Mac Pro. However all the actual evidence points to this is simply a miscalculation, not a conscious choice.

by SiVal 8y ago

paulcole 8y ago

Disneyland is fun! What’s wrong with that? Most people aren’t doing anything more than having fun with their “iToys”. I like having fun and I love my iPad. I only ever touch a computer at work and that’s the way I like it.

pentae 8y ago
It's fun but you can't leave the park. If I want to install a 3rd party app on my $1100 iPhone without using the App store i'm shit out of luck. I think it's unacceptable that if I'm paying that much for a phone I have to go to a different brand to get that freedom and flexibility. The App store is great but the consumer should have a choice to install apps without it despite the potential dangers. As an adult, if I want to install a Youporn or casino app on my phone I don't need Apple telling me that's not allowed.
- eric-hu 8y ago
  That level of lockdown is a feature. I would like more freedom and control in iOS too sometimes, but I've gotten used to it. I'm still on my first iPhone (6s) and I'm happy with it for what it does. Contrast this with Androids. Every vendor has their own variation of the OS, APIs are inconsistently implemented across devices, and it's a good bet that the phone will stop receiving OS upgrades in 2 years. I don't think iOS is perfect by any means, but I take Apple's Draconian measures along with the the long term stability and higher app quality. It's the best mobile OS on the market for me. I still won't get the iPhone X because of the price and face ID replacing touch ID. I'd probably pay to replace the battery and use this phone for another 2 years. It's nice that I can reasonably count on that.
  - pentae 8y ago
    Well it's not a feature for me. Not sure how allowing vendors to install apps onto iOS without the app store (and having a few warning popups) has anything to do with OS fragmentation on Android. Isn't it an interesting coincidence how those 'draconian measures' you mention that are so great have a side effect of being really, really good for Apples business.
- paulcole 8y ago
  I pay Apple $800 for an iPad so there won't be Youporn or casino apps in their app store. Either go to Android (no clue what their free for all store allows) or visit the website. The closed system is what I want and I'm happy to pay a premium for it.
  - michaelmrose 8y ago
    You agree with what is presently censored are you sure that this will always be so? If you want a few players to control the gateway to most future communications and culture so that your kids will have to work harder to see boobs online then i question your judgment.
    - paulcole 8y ago

derefr 8y ago

What about the low-end Mac (e.g. the Mac Mini) as a "dip your toe in" approach to inviting developers into the macOS/iOS ecosystem? That's always what I understood it as before—it was never an HTPC, and regular users always preferred either AIOs like the iMac, or notebooks. The Mac Mini was specifically the "you already have a Windows workstation, now unplug it and plug its peripherals into this to try out developing on a Mac" experience.

jen729w 8y ago
I have one - let me see, a mid-2010 - sitting under my desk. It's my media server, primarily, but I use it for other bits and pieces. It's useful to have an always-on Mac in the house, given that my primary machine is now a MacBook Pro. It got an SSD a few years ago, prolonging its life. It's probably been turned on for 90% of the time since I got it. Current uptime: 26 days. If they release an update, I'll probably buy one.

haberman 8y ago

> I suspect we'll see touchscreen laptops running iOS pretty soon Seems unlikely. From a 2016 interview: > MacOS is meant to be operated with a mouse and keyboard. Apple says it doesn’t make sense to lean forward to touch your Mac screen. An iOS-powered iPad works best with fingers, which means you can just lean back while using it. > “We did spend a great deal of time looking at this a number of years ago and came to the conclusion that to make the best personal computer, you can’t try to turn MacOS into an iPhone,” Schiller says. “Conversely, you can’t turn iOS into a Mac…. So each one is best at what they’re meant to be — and we take what makes sense to add from each, but without fundamentally changing them so they’re compromised.” --https://www.cnet.com/special-reports/does-the-mac-still-matter/ https://www.cnet.com/special-reports/does-the-mac-still-matt...

jpetso 8y ago
Well, they have the iPad Pro with keyboard cover already. Who's to say that they couldn't make that into an actual laptop product, replacing their lower-end macOS devices? Also, none of your quotes mention the impossibility of making an iOS device with yet another different form factor. It merely says that they won't merge the two OSes. Plus, even if that weren't the case, it wouldn't be the first time that Apple went back on a public statement while rebranding the backtracking as the invention of a whole new computing paradigm.
- dm319 8y ago
  not an apple user, but can you get unix commandline tools on iOS like you can with termux on Android?
  - kgc 8y ago
    Yes.
empath75 8y ago
Actions speak louder than words. They’ve barely done anything with macOS in years.

Doctor_Fegg 8y ago

> The low-end Mac seems to only matter now as a source of low-end users, who need carrot and stick to move them off Mac and onto iOS Cheapest price for a prepaid iPhone SE right now: £244 Cheapest price for a Mac Mini right now: £479 ...define "low-end"? [Prices from Google Shopping] The Mac mini is a great machine for iOS development; I do all mine on one.

bananaboy 8y ago
They feel so slow though, do you find that? I use a late 2014 model as a build machine. It's a Core i5 2.6 Ghz with 8 Gb RAM and a regular HDD, and it takes ~20 mins average to build a not very large Unity game. The last build Xcode took 7m 45s and exporting the IPA took 9m 17s. I haven't profiled where all that time is going yet. Maybe I should have sprung for the Fusion Drive and i7.
- MR4D 8y ago
  I concur. I’m completely convinced that my 12 inch iPad Pro blows away my 2014 Mac mini in every respect. Mac mini has 8GB ram, and an SSD. Still doesn’t feel nearly as snappy as my iPad. My 2010 MBAir is even worse.
- nicky0 8y ago
  Get an SSD in there. It'a not too hard to fit it yourself using an iFixit guide.
- Doctor_Fegg 8y ago
  Mine's late 2014 too (2.8 i5 rather than 2.6) but the Fusion Drive makes a massive difference - can't recommend it enough. (That said, I'm not using Unity.)
  - bananaboy 8y ago
    Yeah thanks I think I'll stick in an SSD. It's not even the Unity part which is particularly slow though, it's the Xcode and exporting to IPA parts.

deltron3030 8y ago

> The high-end Mac users have a better story, because Apple needs developers for their ecosystem, and those people need good tools. I can't imagine Apple being interested in developing dev tools that run on non-Apple devices They could turn macOS into an exclusive dev tool for their ecosystem. Currently it's basically the main dev platform for rivaling ecosystems like the web, and the companies in that space that compete with Apple. A switch of the desktop architecture (they already announced that this will happen in the coming years) might enforce the apptore on iOS as well, and destroy the homebrew and third party scene.

chaostheory 8y ago

> I suspect we'll see touchscreen laptops running iOS pretty soon Doesn't this already exist as the iPad Pro? Multitasking was introduced with the product line. They even heavily pushed the keyboard and pen. https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MJYR2LL/A/smart-keyboard-for-129-inch-ipad-pro-us-english https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MJYR2LL/A/smart-keyboard-...

tsmarsh 8y ago
I use my ipad pro as a laptop replacement. It works better than I expected except for a few quirks around keyboard support in apps like safari and aws workspaces which are irritating enough to make coding bear impossible. But in many ways its better than a laptop, especially around note taking and reading.
- TheOtherHobbes 8y ago
  For most content dev, especially media creation, productivity is proportional to screen area. The iPad Pro is fine for limited tasks, including simple media creation. But there’s no way anyone is going to want to edit a Hollywood movie or record and mix a complex album on one.
  - chaostheory 8y ago
    This is a good summary of what can be done with an iPad Pro. https://paulstamatiou.com/made-on-an-ipad-pro/ https://paulstamatiou.com/made-on-an-ipad-pro/ It's pretty in line with your opinion; just a lot more detail.

on_and_off 8y ago

>They control the iOS-based world in a way they could never control "computers". They're trying to get as many people as they can into their new Disneyland-ish ecosystem, where everything you do is approved and monitored and everything you buy is bought through them. This sounds so dystopic. I hope that being able to publish software without having to bow to a gatekeeper won't become a thing of the past.

SiVal 8y ago
Not just "publishing" software but even writing private software for your own, and your friends' & families', devices is something we can't take for granted. For personal and (private) family use, I gave up on trying to do native apps for iPhone and decided to learn how to do whatever was possible with web apps. And if iOS Safari (Apple's "gatekeeper" of last resort) falls too far behind, I'll take myself and the whole gang I serve as "IT installer, fixer, and advisor" for right out of Apple land.
- fingerlocks 8y ago
  A hundred bucks a year and put your friends and family on TestFlight. Completely private, no publishing required.
pjmlp 8y ago
Then better switch to a free UNIX clone. As Mojave is getting iOS security model, Windows is merging the Win32 into UWP, ChromeOS and Android are turning into one OS, and who knows what they would do with Fucshia.
- sandbags 8y ago
  What do you mean by “Mojave is getting iOS security model”. What I’ve seen announced is that, as of 10.14, the system will ask the user when an app first wants access to, e.g., microphone or camera. Do you mean something else?
  - 8y ago

simonh 8y ago

They don't refresh the hardware aggressively because they just flat out don't need to. It's not about running down the Mac, if that was their aim they wouldn't have spent tons of engineering resources on the redesigned super-slim MBPs with new keyboard design and brand new whizzy touch bar. Those features may or may be problematic or even flat out mistakes, but they're not a sign of lazy lack of focus. The thing is the vast majority of Mac customers don't know what a clock speed is, don't know the difference between RAM memory and Flash memory, and don't care, and are buying these things by the truckload. Apple has always been tardy about hardware updates. It looks like right now they really have actually dropped the ball, and at last they recognised that with the Mac Pro. However all the actual evidence points to this is simply a miscalculation, not a conscious choice.