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The problem is if UBI is implemented then it may turn out like some kind of basic standard of living (small flat, free public transportation, etc.) And if you

The problem is if UBI is implemented then it may turn out like some kind of basic standard of living (small flat, free public transportation, etc.) And if you want more then you'll have to work in some high skilled job to earn extra money on top of UBI. But there won't be enough such jobs for everyone, so there will be fierce competion for these jobs, because those who'll be able to work will enjoy a higher standard of living than people on UBI.

lovich 8y ago
You are making the incorrect assumption everyone who works wants a continually higher standard of living. I am perfectly fine with my current material possessions. I don't really want new things anymore. The only reason I continue to work is because I, or my family, are just one major health issue away from losing everything.
- dmortin 8y ago
  Of course, people have different needs. My point was it's possible one wouldn't be able to maintain one's current standard of living if out of job and living on this future UBI. Then people would want to work to regain at least their previous standard of living.
  - krapp 8y ago
    >My point was it's possible one wouldn't be able to maintain one's current standard of living if out of job and living on this future UBI. The purpose of UBI as I understand it would be to provide a stable floor of income for people independent of employment. I think of it as being like a minimum wage - not high enough for a middle class standard of living, but hopefully higher than the poverty line. Enough to keep food on the table.
    - dmortin 8y ago
      If it will be like minimum wage then many people are mistaken thinking that they will be able live on UBI in the future and maintain their current lifestyles (big house, two cars, etc.).
      - krapp 8y ago
        Anyone who believes UBI will allow them to maintain that quality of life fundamentally misunderstands its purpose and possible scope. UBI just decouples employment from social welfare, people who want a big house and two cars would still have to work for it.
  - lovich 8y ago
    Yes, if UBI wasn't UBI then of course it wouldn't be UBI. The very definition of it, is that it provides a floor for people where a standard of living _is_ maintained. There are arguments that UBI is not attainable/sustainable, but that's different then getting the definition wrong
    - dmortin 8y ago
      But what is that standard? If today someboday has a big house and two cars, and robots take his job in the future then can he expect his UBI will be enough to maintain the big house and 2 cars, because that is his current standard of living? I doubt that.
      - lovich 8y ago
        The standard shouldnt be "This guys personal idea of a living situation". Wed have to come to an agreement as a society as to what is part of that standard. I think shelter, clothes, internet, and food would be a reasonable modern standard but that shelter doesn't have to mean a 3000 sq ft house, and internet doesn't mean they have the fastest connection speed possible in the area, and food doesn't mean steak and lobster every night. That standard should increase as technology improves, for instance if we did this in the 90s having internet access would have been a luxury and not a requirement for being part of society, but it doesn't have to be something luxurious compared to the time period its paid out in
rosser 8y ago
> And if you want more then you'll have to work in some high skilled job to earn extra money... Or try your hand at entrepreneurship, since you've got a net. Or write a book, which you turn into passive income. Or, or, or... A UBI should take us to a place where jobs are optional. This is an unambiguous net good, IMO.
- jeffreyrogers 8y ago
  You have to finance UBI somehow. Every realistic estimate for how to finance it would put the amount of UBI around $10k, maybe $20k. That's not a lot to live off of. You're not going to become an entrepreneur with $20k since that won't pay for office space, equipment, etc. Plus UBI probably creates a disincentive for work. This is not just some hypothesis. In trials of UBI people receiving UBI worked less. Fewer people working -> less tax revenue -> less money available to finance UBI. UBI isn't a panacea or a route to utopia. Jobs can't be optional until we have some sort of robotic labor force, which is a long way off.
  - rosser 8y ago
    > You're not going to become an entrepreneur with $20k… Isn't that around the amount YC typically puts into a project? Hasn't the internet proven how cheap entrepreneurship can be?
    - gowld 8y ago
      Not every business is a web app.
      - rosser 8y ago
        I'm not sure where I implied that it is, except perhaps in invoking YC, which funds far more than "web apps". Not having to burn yourself out just to feed and shelter yourself would afford you vastly more opportunity to find a niche that you can make an extra buck in, if you're inclined and motivated that way. I don't see why this is such an un-obvious notion, or why people seem not to think that could net us a far richer economy — of goods, services, and ideas — than the one we've got, where you on the whole only get what someone who already has money (either the founder or their backers) decides to make.

lovich 8y ago

You are making the incorrect assumption everyone who works wants a continually higher standard of living. I am perfectly fine with my current material possessions. I don't really want new things anymore. The only reason I continue to work is because I, or my family, are just one major health issue away from losing everything.

dmortin 8y ago
Of course, people have different needs. My point was it's possible one wouldn't be able to maintain one's current standard of living if out of job and living on this future UBI. Then people would want to work to regain at least their previous standard of living.
- krapp 8y ago
  >My point was it's possible one wouldn't be able to maintain one's current standard of living if out of job and living on this future UBI. The purpose of UBI as I understand it would be to provide a stable floor of income for people independent of employment. I think of it as being like a minimum wage - not high enough for a middle class standard of living, but hopefully higher than the poverty line. Enough to keep food on the table.
  - dmortin 8y ago
    If it will be like minimum wage then many people are mistaken thinking that they will be able live on UBI in the future and maintain their current lifestyles (big house, two cars, etc.).
    - krapp 8y ago
      Anyone who believes UBI will allow them to maintain that quality of life fundamentally misunderstands its purpose and possible scope. UBI just decouples employment from social welfare, people who want a big house and two cars would still have to work for it.
- lovich 8y ago
  Yes, if UBI wasn't UBI then of course it wouldn't be UBI. The very definition of it, is that it provides a floor for people where a standard of living _is_ maintained. There are arguments that UBI is not attainable/sustainable, but that's different then getting the definition wrong
  - dmortin 8y ago
    But what is that standard? If today someboday has a big house and two cars, and robots take his job in the future then can he expect his UBI will be enough to maintain the big house and 2 cars, because that is his current standard of living? I doubt that.
    - lovich 8y ago
      The standard shouldnt be "This guys personal idea of a living situation". Wed have to come to an agreement as a society as to what is part of that standard. I think shelter, clothes, internet, and food would be a reasonable modern standard but that shelter doesn't have to mean a 3000 sq ft house, and internet doesn't mean they have the fastest connection speed possible in the area, and food doesn't mean steak and lobster every night. That standard should increase as technology improves, for instance if we did this in the 90s having internet access would have been a luxury and not a requirement for being part of society, but it doesn't have to be something luxurious compared to the time period its paid out in

rosser 8y ago

> And if you want more then you'll have to work in some high skilled job to earn extra money... Or try your hand at entrepreneurship, since you've got a net. Or write a book, which you turn into passive income. Or, or, or... A UBI should take us to a place where jobs are optional. This is an unambiguous net good, IMO.

jeffreyrogers 8y ago
You have to finance UBI somehow. Every realistic estimate for how to finance it would put the amount of UBI around $10k, maybe $20k. That's not a lot to live off of. You're not going to become an entrepreneur with $20k since that won't pay for office space, equipment, etc. Plus UBI probably creates a disincentive for work. This is not just some hypothesis. In trials of UBI people receiving UBI worked less. Fewer people working -> less tax revenue -> less money available to finance UBI. UBI isn't a panacea or a route to utopia. Jobs can't be optional until we have some sort of robotic labor force, which is a long way off.
- rosser 8y ago
  > You're not going to become an entrepreneur with $20k… Isn't that around the amount YC typically puts into a project? Hasn't the internet proven how cheap entrepreneurship can be?
  - gowld 8y ago
    Not every business is a web app.
    - rosser 8y ago
      I'm not sure where I implied that it is, except perhaps in invoking YC, which funds far more than "web apps". Not having to burn yourself out just to feed and shelter yourself would afford you vastly more opportunity to find a niche that you can make an extra buck in, if you're inclined and motivated that way. I don't see why this is such an un-obvious notion, or why people seem not to think that could net us a far richer economy — of goods, services, and ideas — than the one we've got, where you on the whole only get what someone who already has money (either the founder or their backers) decides to make.