5 ms·

Automation should lead to the end of work. The end result should be that everything we want is produced for us and humans wony be forced to do labor, at which p

by lovich 8y ago

Automation should lead to the end of work. The end result should be that everything we want is produced for us and humans wony be forced to do labor, at which point we can focus on doing what we _actually_ want to do.

krapp 8y ago
But we live in capitalist societies, and humans will still be required to pay rent for their survival, despite not being able to exchange their labor for the necessary capital. How often has automation in the past led to the unemployed leading lives of intellectual pursuit and luxury? Never. Typically those made surplus to requirement are left to scrape by in meager poverty, as has happened in the American rust belt and Appalachia, because automation has lowered their value in society to be barely worth the cost of keeping them alive. We need to prepare for that, rather than hoping for a utopian, post-scarcity fantasy that isn't going to happen.
- JoeAltmaier 8y ago
  Unless we make it happen. By instituting a UBI for instance. Or expanding human rights to include food and shelter. "Who will pay for all this?!" is the usual outcry. Ignoring the very premise that automation has taken over the role of producing all this. Its a circular argument that has roots in the Protestant Work Ethic (independent of Capitalism) where "If I have to work, they everybody has to work dad gum it!"
  - krapp 8y ago
    >Unless we make it happen. By instituting a UBI for instance. Or expanding human rights to include food and shelter. In the US, that's going to be a difficult sell. States threatened to secede over the ACA and that was nowhere near as "socialist" as a universal income or right to food and shelter would be. It could happen, but it seems like it would take a serious social and political upheaval, and the winds currently seem to be blowing in the other direction entirely. I hope it doesn't take something on the scale of the Great Depression to bring it about.
    - JoeAltmaier 8y ago
      Just public reeducation. I think as soon as "you get a check in the mail" is presented, folks will change their minds sooner than we think.
    - gowld 8y ago
      The states threatening to secede are net recipients of welfare payments, so secession makes UBI more cost-effective.
    - lovich 8y ago
      Are we supposed to just shoot ourselves in the foot because some people want to do it? At some point this level of difference in political views can only come to violence if one side is "we should tax the richest more" and the other side is "if you're poor then you are going to starve". And before anyone calls that hyperbole, I don't see how refusing to provide some sort of garunteed welfare that provides food and housing is not "if you're poor you are gonna starve" in a system where access to food and shelter is tied to your income
dmortin 8y ago
The problem is if UBI is implemented then it may turn out like some kind of basic standard of living (small flat, free public transportation, etc.) And if you want more then you'll have to work in some high skilled job to earn extra money on top of UBI. But there won't be enough such jobs for everyone, so there will be fierce competion for these jobs, because those who'll be able to work will enjoy a higher standard of living than people on UBI.
- lovich 8y ago
  You are making the incorrect assumption everyone who works wants a continually higher standard of living. I am perfectly fine with my current material possessions. I don't really want new things anymore. The only reason I continue to work is because I, or my family, are just one major health issue away from losing everything.
  - dmortin 8y ago
    Of course, people have different needs. My point was it's possible one wouldn't be able to maintain one's current standard of living if out of job and living on this future UBI. Then people would want to work to regain at least their previous standard of living.
    - krapp 8y ago
      >My point was it's possible one wouldn't be able to maintain one's current standard of living if out of job and living on this future UBI. The purpose of UBI as I understand it would be to provide a stable floor of income for people independent of employment. I think of it as being like a minimum wage - not high enough for a middle class standard of living, but hopefully higher than the poverty line. Enough to keep food on the table.
      - dmortin 8y ago
        If it will be like minimum wage then many people are mistaken thinking that they will be able live on UBI in the future and maintain their current lifestyles (big house, two cars, etc.).

by lovich 8y ago

krapp 8y ago

But we live in capitalist societies, and humans will still be required to pay rent for their survival, despite not being able to exchange their labor for the necessary capital. How often has automation in the past led to the unemployed leading lives of intellectual pursuit and luxury? Never. Typically those made surplus to requirement are left to scrape by in meager poverty, as has happened in the American rust belt and Appalachia, because automation has lowered their value in society to be barely worth the cost of keeping them alive. We need to prepare for that, rather than hoping for a utopian, post-scarcity fantasy that isn't going to happen.

JoeAltmaier 8y ago
Unless we make it happen. By instituting a UBI for instance. Or expanding human rights to include food and shelter. "Who will pay for all this?!" is the usual outcry. Ignoring the very premise that automation has taken over the role of producing all this. Its a circular argument that has roots in the Protestant Work Ethic (independent of Capitalism) where "If I have to work, they everybody has to work dad gum it!"
- krapp 8y ago
  >Unless we make it happen. By instituting a UBI for instance. Or expanding human rights to include food and shelter. In the US, that's going to be a difficult sell. States threatened to secede over the ACA and that was nowhere near as "socialist" as a universal income or right to food and shelter would be. It could happen, but it seems like it would take a serious social and political upheaval, and the winds currently seem to be blowing in the other direction entirely. I hope it doesn't take something on the scale of the Great Depression to bring it about.
  - JoeAltmaier 8y ago
    Just public reeducation. I think as soon as "you get a check in the mail" is presented, folks will change their minds sooner than we think.
  - gowld 8y ago
    The states threatening to secede are net recipients of welfare payments, so secession makes UBI more cost-effective.
  - lovich 8y ago
    Are we supposed to just shoot ourselves in the foot because some people want to do it? At some point this level of difference in political views can only come to violence if one side is "we should tax the richest more" and the other side is "if you're poor then you are going to starve". And before anyone calls that hyperbole, I don't see how refusing to provide some sort of garunteed welfare that provides food and housing is not "if you're poor you are gonna starve" in a system where access to food and shelter is tied to your income

dmortin 8y ago

The problem is if UBI is implemented then it may turn out like some kind of basic standard of living (small flat, free public transportation, etc.) And if you want more then you'll have to work in some high skilled job to earn extra money on top of UBI. But there won't be enough such jobs for everyone, so there will be fierce competion for these jobs, because those who'll be able to work will enjoy a higher standard of living than people on UBI.

lovich 8y ago
You are making the incorrect assumption everyone who works wants a continually higher standard of living. I am perfectly fine with my current material possessions. I don't really want new things anymore. The only reason I continue to work is because I, or my family, are just one major health issue away from losing everything.
- dmortin 8y ago
  Of course, people have different needs. My point was it's possible one wouldn't be able to maintain one's current standard of living if out of job and living on this future UBI. Then people would want to work to regain at least their previous standard of living.
  - krapp 8y ago
    >My point was it's possible one wouldn't be able to maintain one's current standard of living if out of job and living on this future UBI. The purpose of UBI as I understand it would be to provide a stable floor of income for people independent of employment. I think of it as being like a minimum wage - not high enough for a middle class standard of living, but hopefully higher than the poverty line. Enough to keep food on the table.
    - dmortin 8y ago
      If it will be like minimum wage then many people are mistaken thinking that they will be able live on UBI in the future and maintain their current lifestyles (big house, two cars, etc.).