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Massive Martian dust storm endangers NASA rover

111 points by kevindeasis 8y ago

pronoiac 8y ago
I'll just link this short story: https://www.wired.com/2016/12/jon-rogers-a-martian-goes-hunting-for-the-past/ https://www.wired.com/2016/12/jon-rogers-a-martian-goes-hunt...
seccess 8y ago
Do dust storms only occur on planets with an atmosphere? And does their severity depend on how dense the atmosphere is?
- scrumbledober 8y ago
  IANAAstronomer but I would imagine the atmosphere is necessary for both the suspension of dust particles and the propulsion of dust particles.
  - ams6110 8y ago
    Impacts by asteroids, meteoriod, etc. could raise dust clouds.
  - zaarn 8y ago
    Dust particles achieving orbital velocity would be sufficient too (small moons, this is possible)
- thomasfortes 8y ago
  From https://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/news/1206/kicking-up-dust-saturn-and-the-solar-wind-send-tiny-particles-flying/ https://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/news/1206/kicking-up-dust-saturn...: "The planetary magnetosphere comes into play with the charged dust particles. The rotation of Saturn’s magnetic field generates an electric field directed radially outward from the planet. This field will eject small, electrically charged particles, into interplanetary space. Once that happens, the interplanetary magnetic field “frozen” into the solar wind can accelerate the dust particles to high speeds, creating the bursts of particles recorded by cosmic dust detectors. Evidence for this interpretation came from the changes in direction of the stream particles when the interplanetary magnetic field changed direction, in close timing with the Sun’s rotation." So my guess is that a planet with no atmosphere and a magnetosphere weak enough to accelerate the charged dust just only enough to keep it moving without being ejected of the planet could have something happening, I'm not a planetary scientist and I don't know if a storm would be plausible so take it with a grain of salt and hope for someone else to jump on the question. But if we're talking about "common" dust storms, without an atmosphere there would be no winds, so no common storms, and since air density in Mars is much lower than Earth (around 1% of ours), high speed storms in Mars would not be as severe as in Earth, wind speeds that would turn a car or rip trees on Earth wouldn't even push a human out of his place in Mars.
- FranOntanaya 8y ago
  Our Moon has "sort of" dust storms of ionized dust. They are driven by electric charge from ionizing solar wind rather than an actual atmosphere.
ibdf 8y ago
“It’s like you have a loved one in a coma in the hospital, and you have the doctors telling you you just have to give it time and she’ll wake up,” says Callas. “But if it’s your 97-year-old grandmother, you’re going to be very concerned, and we are. By no means are we out of the woods.” This is just a sad analogy. Yes, let's compare the life of a robot to the one of a human being.
- manicdee 8y ago
  The life of a human being can be evaluated in terms of how many people they've interacted with, the influence they've had on those peoples' lives, and the lasting memories that people carry with them once that human has gone. It is quite possible to apply the same metrics to "a robot" (which is actually an entire science program at JPL), and see that this program has affected the lives of many more people than most humans ever will. There are people whose entire careers have been based on this program, and the community of technicians, scientists, engineers, administrators etc around the robot is just as real as the community around any person. If this robot ceases functioning, the entire project stops, careers are ended, and a community is fractured. To this community the robot is just as important as any human. Your lame attempt at concern trolling shows very little respect for the community involved in this project.
  - jacobreg 8y ago
    Not to mention that far more than a lifetime has been collectively invested in it. Given its budget of $400M, and assuming an engineer costs roughly $1,000/day, we have about 1000 people-years invested in this project.
    - meric 8y ago
      A modern day pyramid: monumental sacrifice and sights to behold.
  - interfixus 8y ago
    Not to mention the rest of us. The razor sharp images from the twin rovers have been a constant source of awe and wonder for the last fifteen years. For me, these almost snapshots really helped establish Mars as a place, as somehwere, just like anywhere else. Thank you, America. One of your nicer cultural exports.
jzl 8y ago
TL;DR -- The issue is lack of sunlight rather than damage from dust or blanketing of the solar panels. I was curious if Opportunity has a way to clean its solar panels. Answer: no, but sometimes a wind gust helps out. https://www.quora.com/How-does-a-Mars-rover-manage-to-clean-itself https://www.quora.com/How-does-a-Mars-rover-manage-to-clean-... Curiosity doesn't have solar panels but rather a "radioisotope thermal generator".
mabbo 8y ago
I'm intrigued by what research and plans have been made for how Martian colonists will deal with this sort of problem. I'm guessing solar won't be enough to keep a colony going. Wind power, even in a dust storm, wouldn't be possible because the air is so thin. Nuclear of some kind seems the only other option.
- credit_guy 8y ago
  Maybe the Kilopower reactor [1] [1]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilopower https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilopower
  - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
    Summary of the linked Wikipedia entry: a nuclear heat source driving a Stirling Engine connected to a regular electric generator. A test reactor has been constructed, called KRUSTY or Kilopower Reactor Using Stirling Technology. It is designed to produce up to 1 kilowatt of electric power and is about 6.5 feet tall (1.9 meters).[12] The goal of the KRUSTY experiment is to closely match the operational parameters that would be required in NASA deep space missions[13]. The prototype Kilopower uses a solid, cast uranium-235 reactor core, about the size of a paper towel roll. Reactor heat is transferred via passive sodium heat pipes, with the heat being converted to electricity by Stirling engines. Sounds neat, I'd like one at home. Electricity is always handy, and the waste heat can be used to keep my house and cars warm.
    - larkeith 8y ago
      Also cool: uses passive heat pipes rather than coolant, further reducing the number of moving parts (making it that much more reliable).
      - namibj 8y ago
        I still wouldn't want that much U-235 in a critical configuration in my home. If something goes wrong, I'm not a superfund site, I'm the reason why someone started WW3/why my neighbourhood is no more.
starik36 8y ago
I am a bit confused by the "Massive" statement. I understand that Mars has barely any atmospheric pressure, therefore, any "Massive" storm would be a gentle wind. If fact, Andy Weir, the author of the "Martian", called the beginning of the book where the hero gets stabbed by a metal rod during the massive storm a complete fabrication for the purposes of the story and impossible in real life.
- Rebelgecko 8y ago
  I think they're calling it massive because the storm covers 1/4 of the planet and is still growing
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- petascale 8y ago
  Massive in extent, it covers large parts of the planet, and in duration, could last for weeks or months. The threat to Opportunity isn't that the storm could rip it apart. It's that even a low-pressure wind can lift a lot of fine dust which blocks out the sun and leaves the rover without power from its solar panel. If it lasts too long the rover could literally freeze to death. NASA has an image from another major storm in 2007 [1], it blocked 99% of the sunlight. This one is worse.[2] [1] https://mars.nasa.gov/resources/7948/a-darkened-mars-sky/ https://mars.nasa.gov/resources/7948/a-darkened-mars-sky/ [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/space/comments/8qvnrw/mars_rover_opportunity_has_survived_5161_days/e0mt3z0/ https://www.reddit.com/r/space/comments/8qvnrw/mars_rover_op...
- elihu 8y ago
  As you say, direct damage from wind isn't a major risk on Mars, contrary to the book. However, dust storms do happen, and according to the article they can affect huge areas and block out most of the sunlight.
  - citrablue 8y ago
    Is the idea that this one lasts long enough that it deposits sand on my friend's panels, and they doesn't have enough backup juice by then to move/clean it off?
FranOntanaya 8y ago
JPL has a recording of the 13th press conference here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIKxdRFx2Wo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIKxdRFx2Wo
some_account 8y ago
The story reads like a movie and everybody seems to just believe it. It's interesting to watch something unfold that has absolutely no evidence and still people believe it's true based on trust alone.
- simion314 8y ago
  All the Flat earth like societies could invest in some equipment and prove once and for all the truth about what the claim is.

111 points by kevindeasis 8y ago

I'll just link this short story: https://www.wired.com/2016/12/jon-rogers-a-martian-goes-hunting-for-the-past/ https://www.wired.com/2016/12/jon-rogers-a-martian-goes-hunt...

seccess 8y ago

Do dust storms only occur on planets with an atmosphere? And does their severity depend on how dense the atmosphere is?

scrumbledober 8y ago
IANAAstronomer but I would imagine the atmosphere is necessary for both the suspension of dust particles and the propulsion of dust particles.
- ams6110 8y ago
  Impacts by asteroids, meteoriod, etc. could raise dust clouds.
- zaarn 8y ago
  Dust particles achieving orbital velocity would be sufficient too (small moons, this is possible)
thomasfortes 8y ago
From https://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/news/1206/kicking-up-dust-saturn-and-the-solar-wind-send-tiny-particles-flying/ https://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/news/1206/kicking-up-dust-saturn...: "The planetary magnetosphere comes into play with the charged dust particles. The rotation of Saturn’s magnetic field generates an electric field directed radially outward from the planet. This field will eject small, electrically charged particles, into interplanetary space. Once that happens, the interplanetary magnetic field “frozen” into the solar wind can accelerate the dust particles to high speeds, creating the bursts of particles recorded by cosmic dust detectors. Evidence for this interpretation came from the changes in direction of the stream particles when the interplanetary magnetic field changed direction, in close timing with the Sun’s rotation." So my guess is that a planet with no atmosphere and a magnetosphere weak enough to accelerate the charged dust just only enough to keep it moving without being ejected of the planet could have something happening, I'm not a planetary scientist and I don't know if a storm would be plausible so take it with a grain of salt and hope for someone else to jump on the question. But if we're talking about "common" dust storms, without an atmosphere there would be no winds, so no common storms, and since air density in Mars is much lower than Earth (around 1% of ours), high speed storms in Mars would not be as severe as in Earth, wind speeds that would turn a car or rip trees on Earth wouldn't even push a human out of his place in Mars.
FranOntanaya 8y ago
Our Moon has "sort of" dust storms of ionized dust. They are driven by electric charge from ionizing solar wind rather than an actual atmosphere.

ibdf 8y ago

“It’s like you have a loved one in a coma in the hospital, and you have the doctors telling you you just have to give it time and she’ll wake up,” says Callas. “But if it’s your 97-year-old grandmother, you’re going to be very concerned, and we are. By no means are we out of the woods.” This is just a sad analogy. Yes, let's compare the life of a robot to the one of a human being.

manicdee 8y ago
The life of a human being can be evaluated in terms of how many people they've interacted with, the influence they've had on those peoples' lives, and the lasting memories that people carry with them once that human has gone. It is quite possible to apply the same metrics to "a robot" (which is actually an entire science program at JPL), and see that this program has affected the lives of many more people than most humans ever will. There are people whose entire careers have been based on this program, and the community of technicians, scientists, engineers, administrators etc around the robot is just as real as the community around any person. If this robot ceases functioning, the entire project stops, careers are ended, and a community is fractured. To this community the robot is just as important as any human. Your lame attempt at concern trolling shows very little respect for the community involved in this project.
- jacobreg 8y ago
  Not to mention that far more than a lifetime has been collectively invested in it. Given its budget of $400M, and assuming an engineer costs roughly $1,000/day, we have about 1000 people-years invested in this project.
  - meric 8y ago
    A modern day pyramid: monumental sacrifice and sights to behold.
- interfixus 8y ago
  Not to mention the rest of us. The razor sharp images from the twin rovers have been a constant source of awe and wonder for the last fifteen years. For me, these almost snapshots really helped establish Mars as a place, as somehwere, just like anywhere else. Thank you, America. One of your nicer cultural exports.

jzl 8y ago

TL;DR -- The issue is lack of sunlight rather than damage from dust or blanketing of the solar panels. I was curious if Opportunity has a way to clean its solar panels. Answer: no, but sometimes a wind gust helps out. https://www.quora.com/How-does-a-Mars-rover-manage-to-clean-itself https://www.quora.com/How-does-a-Mars-rover-manage-to-clean-... Curiosity doesn't have solar panels but rather a "radioisotope thermal generator".

mabbo 8y ago

I'm intrigued by what research and plans have been made for how Martian colonists will deal with this sort of problem. I'm guessing solar won't be enough to keep a colony going. Wind power, even in a dust storm, wouldn't be possible because the air is so thin. Nuclear of some kind seems the only other option.

credit_guy 8y ago
Maybe the Kilopower reactor [1] [1]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilopower https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilopower
- TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
  Summary of the linked Wikipedia entry: a nuclear heat source driving a Stirling Engine connected to a regular electric generator. A test reactor has been constructed, called KRUSTY or Kilopower Reactor Using Stirling Technology. It is designed to produce up to 1 kilowatt of electric power and is about 6.5 feet tall (1.9 meters).[12] The goal of the KRUSTY experiment is to closely match the operational parameters that would be required in NASA deep space missions[13]. The prototype Kilopower uses a solid, cast uranium-235 reactor core, about the size of a paper towel roll. Reactor heat is transferred via passive sodium heat pipes, with the heat being converted to electricity by Stirling engines. Sounds neat, I'd like one at home. Electricity is always handy, and the waste heat can be used to keep my house and cars warm.
  - larkeith 8y ago
    Also cool: uses passive heat pipes rather than coolant, further reducing the number of moving parts (making it that much more reliable).
    - namibj 8y ago
      I still wouldn't want that much U-235 in a critical configuration in my home. If something goes wrong, I'm not a superfund site, I'm the reason why someone started WW3/why my neighbourhood is no more.

starik36 8y ago

I am a bit confused by the "Massive" statement. I understand that Mars has barely any atmospheric pressure, therefore, any "Massive" storm would be a gentle wind. If fact, Andy Weir, the author of the "Martian", called the beginning of the book where the hero gets stabbed by a metal rod during the massive storm a complete fabrication for the purposes of the story and impossible in real life.

Rebelgecko 8y ago
I think they're calling it massive because the storm covers 1/4 of the planet and is still growing
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
petascale 8y ago
Massive in extent, it covers large parts of the planet, and in duration, could last for weeks or months. The threat to Opportunity isn't that the storm could rip it apart. It's that even a low-pressure wind can lift a lot of fine dust which blocks out the sun and leaves the rover without power from its solar panel. If it lasts too long the rover could literally freeze to death. NASA has an image from another major storm in 2007 [1], it blocked 99% of the sunlight. This one is worse.[2] [1] https://mars.nasa.gov/resources/7948/a-darkened-mars-sky/ https://mars.nasa.gov/resources/7948/a-darkened-mars-sky/ [2] https://www.reddit.com/r/space/comments/8qvnrw/mars_rover_opportunity_has_survived_5161_days/e0mt3z0/ https://www.reddit.com/r/space/comments/8qvnrw/mars_rover_op...
elihu 8y ago
As you say, direct damage from wind isn't a major risk on Mars, contrary to the book. However, dust storms do happen, and according to the article they can affect huge areas and block out most of the sunlight.
- citrablue 8y ago
  Is the idea that this one lasts long enough that it deposits sand on my friend's panels, and they doesn't have enough backup juice by then to move/clean it off?

FranOntanaya 8y ago

JPL has a recording of the 13th press conference here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIKxdRFx2Wo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIKxdRFx2Wo

some_account 8y ago

The story reads like a movie and everybody seems to just believe it. It's interesting to watch something unfold that has absolutely no evidence and still people believe it's true based on trust alone.

simion314 8y ago
All the Flat earth like societies could invest in some equipment and prove once and for all the truth about what the claim is.