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Ask HN: Does anyone know if Apple plans to address the MacBook keyboard issue?
Does anyone have any idea if Apple is going to DO something about the MacBook keyboard issue? Or if this is simply the new normal for Apple laptop keyboards?
I know that the current butterfly mechanism is v2, it's slightly improved over the very 1st iteration (which appeared on the original 12" MacBook retina).
Will there be a v3?
- lkurusa 8y agoActually, the current version is v3, found on 2017 MBPs. v2 appeared on 2016 MBPs, and v1 on the first 12" MacBook. I have the v2 version, and this is my third top case, if it were not for consumer laws here, I would have moved to another laptop. As far as I'm aware there are no plans to address them, we have to wait until the next Apple event to hear more, hopefully.
- plg 8y agoah ok thanks Out of curiosity, what other laptop would you have moved to? Another apple laptop or something different altogether?
- lkurusa 8y agoI was thinking of either the Lenovo X1 Carbon, or the Dell XPS 13. They seem robust, lightweight and run Linux.
- mseri 8y agoI had a really good experience with the XPS 15, and a colleague of mine was really happy with the 13 model. They seem to work perfectly fine with the latest ubuntu and fedora and they had a decent battery life
- ghostbrainalpha 8y agoWould you get the Developer Edition on the XPS 13? Does anyone know why there isn't a Developer Edition on the 15 inch XPS?
- lkurusa 8y agoI haven't looked too much into the differences, but I suspect DE since it seems to support Linux better.
- fusiongyro 8y agoThe Precision 5520 is exactly what a Developer Edition XPS 15 would be, and you can get it with Linux preloaded. I did, and I'm very satisfied with it.
- bittercynic 8y agoI've been using an XPS 13 (9350) with Arch Linux for a while, and been very happy with it. Good battery life, and good performance. Only goofy issue is that sometimes on AC power the CPU gets stuck at the lowest frequency, but unplugging for a moment fixes it.
- heycato 8y agoI have a 2015 XPS 13 Developer Edition (9343) that I still use and love. Also have a 4K XPS 15 (9560) that is dual booting Ubuntu 18.04 and Win10... 18.04 has some quirks during install - and an issue with shutdown out of the box, but https://github.com/stockmind/dell-xps-9560-ubuntu-respin https://github.com/stockmind/dell-xps-9560-ubuntu-respin resolved all of that. In my opinion - you can't go wrong with an XPS. The new 13 looks pretty sweet too.
- needz 8y agoI recently switched from a 2015 Macbook Pro to a Lenovo T480s (w/ Fedora 28) and have been relatively happy with the purchase over all. A key did break off within 2 weeks, but I'm hoping after that is taken care of it'll be smooth sailing from here on out.
- Clubber 8y agoI currently have a 2017 MacBook Pro and the keyboard isn't giving me much trouble. Sometimes something will get in the key mechanism, but blowing into the gap between the key and the case fixes it. After using it, my wife's 2013 MacBook Pro feels really spongy (a keyboard I loved).
- lkurusa 8y agoI don't even want to count how many compressed air bottles I'm through. Most of the time it fixes the problem, but (so far) three times I had to take it to the Apple Store and claim Consumer Law because the key mechanism broke.
- protomyth 8y agoSame model with compressed air and an Apple Store visit not fixing the issue. I am waiting a bit to send it in since there is no real fix and I have an external keyboard at work (with an LG monitor) so it stays closed all day anyway.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- tonyedgecombe 8y agoMy guess is the touch bar along with haptic feedback is going to replace the whole keyboard.
- maxxxxx 8y agoThey'll probably call it "ipad"
- xenophonf 8y agoI can't tell if you're joking, but I've long wondered about keyboards transmuting into touch pads of some kind. Haptic feedback is only part of it, though. I really depend on affordances like the nubs on the F and J keys or the valleys between keys to orient my hands above the keyboard properly without constantly having to look at them. The lack of such affordances on your average on-screen keyboard make high-speed touch typing very difficult for me. Does anyone know if there's been any research in this area?
- beat 8y agoI don't know about formal research, but there's definitely a track history of membrane keyboards and other such "advances" that kill the physical feedback becoming miserable market failures. Given Apple's usual attention to detail about the importance of such tactile feedback, I can't imagine them going to a system that rejects it. Moreover, we're not seeing non-Apple PC vendors moving in that direction too, even though it's hardly expensive or technically difficult these days. To the extend that tactile feedback is important for efficient typing, I imagine keyboard design for laptops is a tradeoff between good feel, durability, and making the mechanism as lightweight and shallow as possible. I'm typing this on a recent-model Thinkpad, and the key throw is about 2mm, substantially less than a high-feedback clicky-key type keyboard.
- harperlee 8y agoI have a MacBook 12". It took me either months or more than a year to notice that the haptic touchpad does not depress at all when you click. It happened suddenly when I pushed it while the laptop was powered off, and I panicked, thinking the pad was broken / stuck. I still grin like an idiot pushing into the pad and telling myself that no, my finger did not go down. It is really magical. If this can be done behind an eink screen or something similar, with a distinct feel for resting a finger and pushing a button, I believe it can be day and night for laptop keyboards. Alternatively, these eink screens could for sure have ridges for key delimitation.
- code4tee 8y agoLet’ss Hope soo becausse it’s gettiing to be quitee annnnoying.
- peterhadlaw 8y agoI laughed and then I cried and then I laughed tears at this commment.
- greglindahl 8y agoI have the 12" MacBook, so it's the v1 keyboard, and after I got used to it, I was OK with it.
- chisleu 8y agoI also didn't like it at first, but after some getting use to, I love it. I like it better than my mid 2015 MBP. edit: I also bought a new MBP 13" and I like it the best. I prefer a 13" form factor, but I primarily got it because it has physical keys instead of the bar.
- txcwpalpha 8y agoI'm not exactly sure which "issues" the OP is talking about, but one of the biggest issues isn't just "getting used to" the new keyboard, but the fact that the new keyboard breaks so easily and then costs so much to replace. At that point it doesn't matter how much you like the new style of keyboard, because if your S key is broken, the keyboard is practically unusable. I have a v2 butterfly keyboard and I actually do prefer the tactile feel over older MacBooks, but the fact that a single piece of hair/dust has broken my keyboard is really unacceptable and something I definitely would like to see addressed.
- greglindahl 8y agoBreakage applies to a subset of users. Everyone has to get used to typing on it. Typing on it was the issue I was referring to.
- rodwyer 8y agoI got sick of it myself and switched to a Lenovo X1 Carbon. Comparison here: http://blog.richard.do/index.php/2018/05/2018-macbook-pro-vs-lenovo-x1-carbon/ http://blog.richard.do/index.php/2018/05/2018-macbook-pro-vs...
- randlet 8y agoI moved to an X1 Carbon (running Ubuntu) from a MBP too. Very happy with it. Keyboard and trackpad are both great.
- bitL 8y agoCan you Hackintosh it? Like ZenBook? Meaning you can run Linux, Windows 7/10 and macOS on the same comp without any compromises?
- d3sandoval 8y agoApparently yes https://www.reddit.com/r/hackintosh/comments/1iybjq/comment/cb9ag2d https://www.reddit.com/r/hackintosh/comments/1iybjq/comment/...
- bitL 8y agoA bit old ;-) Mountain Lion on some earlier generation.
- happimess 8y agoThanks for the concise review. Off-topic question, though: > but due to the ports issue (which Apple are taking the piss with) What does "taking the piss with" mean in this context?
- zaroth 8y agoWell when the internals don’t provide meaningful productivity differentiation for 90% of users for the last about 6-8 years now, and the MacBook Air design circa 2012 is virtually indestructible, how else are they going to get their users to upgrade machines every 2-3 years if not for shitty keyboard redesigns?
- nine_k 8y agoThe glued-in battery (not endemic to Apple) genuinely wears down and forces people to upgrade. Not in 2-3 years, though.
- mrgordon 8y agoYou can still get Apple to replace the battery right? Seems like a small issue if the rest of the computer works well.
- bitL 8y agoYou can get it replaced for like $200...
- zaroth 8y agoTakes about 10 minutes to replace. I’ve done it and it was surprisingly easy. There is no glue on my 2012 model. https://youtu.be/uOJKy7xVpIY?t=105 https://youtu.be/uOJKy7xVpIY?t=105
- solomatov 8y agoEven if they have, they are known for super strict security rules, so it won't be disclosed. I saw a link to their patent application where they patented a way to protect the current keyboard design from dust and crumbs. Personally, I got tired of their disregard for software developers issues with hardware, and now my working machine in the new XPS 13 from Dell. I am happy with it.
- madengr 8y agoAs an EE, I despise using laptops, rather want real engineering workstations. So what is it with software developers and laptops? The portability? Or rather people just being used to a laptop since they are ubiquitous in college. Even plugged into monitors, laptop keyboards just plain suck. I have an XPS-13, and it's handy for field use with GNU Radio, but can't fathom doing anything productive on it.
- marrone12 8y agoPeople who work in businesses frequently need to take their computer along to meetings, or for pair programming, or if they're going to work remotely.
- madengr 8y agoI guess I'm in a totally different work environment, as I've never had an internal meeting with a laptop present.
- devilirium 8y agoMy previous workplace had meetings like that. On my current project we just gather around on Skype from our workstation if we need to collaborate digitally.
- devilirium 8y agoI believe developers should have a powerful workstation and a small laptop which is able to remote into the workstation. Pair programming can be done through Slack or Skype (highlight the screen when you want to pinpoint something - it's easier than pointing to the monitor) Although this setup doesn't solve the remote work issue as remote control protocols can be pretty slow or plainly unusable with a slow internet connection.
- gergi 8y agoSeems like the post should provide some context. What exactly is the issue?
- reificator 8y agoThe keys have so little travel on them that even a spec of dust can lock them in place.
- untog 8y agohttp://lmgtfy.com/?q=macbook+keyboard+issue http://lmgtfy.com/?q=macbook+keyboard+issue
- ovao 8y agoDust or debris can get under the keys and cause them to fail. There are also complaints that some keys don't register as well as others, and that some keys have a different feel than others (in terms of sponginess, etc.)
- JohnTHaller 8y agoThe keys on the keyboard randomly stop working. This appears to be due to a design flaw that allows even a small amount of dust to interfere with the key action mechanism. Apple posted a 'fix' involving holding the laptop at odd angles and blowing compressed air under the keys to attempt to get them working again. Anecdotally, several HN users have reported having their keyboard replaced multiple times under warranty due to this issue.
- dharmab 8y agoLike other users said, even a small piece of dust can cause keys to fail. The keyboard is not user-servicable and can only be repaired by taking the laptop apart (ungluing the case).
- gressquel 8y agolet me piggy-back, is Apple going to have proper HDMI ports in future? Im going surface book the moment my current macbook stops working.
- akmarinov 8y agoI'd go with 99% no.
- satsuma 8y agoapple's mo has always been "why go with standardized ports when we can make our own, nearly identical ports and sell you the adapters?" i think usb is one of the only cases where they haven't. and thunderbolt, sort of. apple loves their proprietary stuff though.
- rootusrootus 8y agoThat doesn't seem fair. The MBP sitting in front of me has mini DisplayPort, USB, HDMI ... all are standards. The newest MBP has USB-C, which is a standard. My last MBP also had FireWire, which was also standardized. There are dongles to buy, but that seems to mostly have to do with such things as Thunderbolt and the ability to piggyback older legacy technologies on newer connectors. Now if you were talking about the phone, I agree. But I also see the point -- micro USB is a terrible, terrible thing. As long as it's robust I would like to see the next phone ditch Lightning for USB-C, but I am otherwise much happier with Lightning connectors than I have ever been with micro USB.
- notadoc 8y agoHas there ever been a time when Apple removed something from hardware, like a port or a popular component, and later added it back? Serious question, as I am not personally aware of such a thing.
- therealmarv 8y ago100% no. Even my MacBook Air 2013 did not had that.
- kinsomo 8y ago
- mrgordon 8y agoI have broken v1 and v2 MacBook Pro keyboards from normal use. Confirmed defective / useless. Really disappointed.
- slouch 8y agoI bought a 2015 refurb instead of a new macbook because of the keyboard issues. It'll get me over this issue and into 2020, I believe.
- notadoc 8y agoThat is what my entire office did too, holding out hope the next generation has a reliable keyboard and no touch bar
- jacquesc 8y agoSame at our office. mid 2015 model 15" is the standard issue for developers. A few people go the latest model and all have regretted it. Seems like Apple can't walk and chew bubble gum at the same time. iPhone and Watches is all they care about and they don't put any thought into Macs anymore.
- benatkin 8y agoI didn't think it would drag out this long.
- mamcx 8y agoI'm hit with the not support of mojave with my 2011 iMac, and all the options now are bad, and cost a LOT for me (specially because SSD upgrades cost so much). The ironic bit is that old machines are almost as costly as new ones...
- atombender 8y agoI bought a new 2015 model, although in my case the Touch Bar was the main reason -- I absolutely hated the new keyboard layout (lack of Esc, no physical function keys, arrow keys are now arranged in way where your fingers can't easily find the right keys without looking down). Unfortunately, turns out they're no longer made with a discrete GPU -- they only have an Intel Iris integrated graphics chip now, no AMD Radeon. The discrete model was discontinued in 2016. As a result, graphics performance is horrible. It's especially noticeably bad with the scaled Retina mode. I have to use the scaled mode on my external 4K display because otherwise the UI becomes so small the text is unreadable. That's when you realize that Apple's approach to resolution independence is pretty crappy. You'd think they could just run in 1:1 and just render text, buttons and so on a little larger, but that's not possible.
- notadoc 8y agoWho knows? Nobody knows outside of Apple. My best guess would be that maybe by sometime late next year at the earliest they will have redesigned the keyboard, but it could easily be 2020 or later, or maybe never. It's also possible the next version won't be an improvement, as many learned when the 2012-2015 MacBook Pro was getting long in the tooth, and the 2016-???? replacement arrived to replace it. In the meantime, you can do what many of us did: upgrade to a three year old 2015 MacBook Pro, it has many useful ports, MagSafe, an escape key, function keys, a working keyboard, etc, it's an improvement in every possible way except that the enclosure is a little bit thicker. Or you can do what many of my other colleagues are doing and get a Lenovo as they migrate back to Linux/Windows.
- atombender 8y agoWord of warning: The current 2015 models sold by Apple don't have the discrete GPU, only an integrated Intel Iris chipset. Graphics performance is atrocious, especially with scaled Retina. I often experience sluggishness related to graphics performance. To get the discontinued, superior discrete model, you have to find a refurb or a used one on Craigslist/EBay/etc., and you have to be pretty lucky to find one with all the right specs (for me, minimum 1TB SSD and 16GB RAM).
- wingerlang 8y agoI got a macbook 2016 model with touch bar as a work laptop. I was scared of all things, the lack of esc, ports, magsafe. However after using it for X months, I am never going back. - The touchbar is great with sliders for brightness and volume. That's ALL I use it for though, so it is a bit under utilized. - The esc key might be the only minor issue, but it's mostly the lack of feedback. - Ports - I love having to unplug only one dongle instead of the 4-5 USD/HDMI/ETC/ETC I always have plugged in every time I need to move away. And plugging them all back in is also a single action. I'd be ok with less ports even. - Magsafe, I still love it but I haven't even missed it. - No issues with the keyboard and I haven't used function keys in years anyway. I think it 'clicked' for me after a few weeks of usage, so I understand people judging it or even returning it after a few days.
- millzlane 8y agoIf anyone knows apple the way that I do. The answer is yes and no. Yes they will address it when it affects their bottom line. No, because they don't consider it an issue to begin with. I'm old enough to remember when they had the logic board issue and specifically gave us (Apple care reps) instructions to not mention it to the customer. So if you called with an unrelated issue, I wasn't allowed to tell you about the recall to replace your logicboard that had an 80% failure rate. Or that the reason the system wasn't booting up was possible the logic board issue. I don't think a company that knowingly ships a bad product, then, either dodges responsibility. Or puts the onus on the consumer will actually do anything right by the consumer with this keyboard issue. As if it's the consumers fault for buying a shitty product.
- ransom1538 8y agoThis. My last trip with my macbook pro to the genius bar went this way. My keyboard didn't work. He looked at my screen, then whispered: "your screen is having a recall -- look at the glossy layer - it is coming off -- we replace it for free". I mean apple sure knows how to take my payment in 15 seconds at the store with my information and email address. But somehow they can't inform me of a recall.
- spenvo 8y agoNo joke, since reading this comment I have confirmed in person my MacBook pro is covered and lined up a screen replacement with them. I really would have kicked myself if I found out about this after the coverage period ended. I guess it pays to read HN comments!
- augbog 8y agoWow that is shady as fuck. I've always respected Apple for delivering fairly high quality products because, well, they are all the same (granted for a very high price but some people they are willing to pay that for that kind of service whether it's expected or not) I'm seriously disappointed they do that.
- samatman 8y agoI broke my own rule and bought a first iteration of new technology from Apple. I'm conflicted. I actually enjoy the feel of the new keys, with the notable exception of the stunningly user-hostile arrow keys. But I'm a bit of a slob, and I've gotten key stick a couple times. I have to baby this thing and I'm used to smashing the keys clean off and having it keep working. Literally, my 2010 era MBP was missing two keys when it retired. Half-height left and right arrow keys, and a keyboard that can withstand the crumbs of outrageous fortune. That'd do it for me.
- DanHulton 8y agoI'm absolutely with you on this. (Well, I haven't gotten any keys stuck, but I'm with you on the rest.) It's a great keyboard, or it would be if it didn't have the crazy failure rate, terrible repairability, and awful arrow keys. So it's actually, just... kinda... fine.
- alphabettsy 8y agoWouldn’t there have to be an acknowledgement of the “issue” to address the “issue”?
- pier25 8y agoWell, there are a couple of class action lawsuits going on.
- microdrum 8y agoWhen I invoke 1Password with ⌘\, I have to press the \ key reallllly hard. I have to get my hand up on one finger, and use the mass of the hand on just one finger, from a ninety-degree angle, to get that \. That's because a little piece of dust got into my keyboard.
- lkurusa 8y agoThis is pretty much what happened to me, except after a few keypresses, the key broke and never recovered. Apple Store fixed it, though.
- kvakkefly 8y agoMy downarrow was like this for a while. Then it broke and I'm sending it in. I've had so many keys stuck due to dust or some other particle . When I press hard enough I can hear it crack and the key usually works again...I really hate the keyboard :P
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- pentae 8y agoDo you remember when Apple laptops had the best keyboards in the business? I miss those days.
- jccalhoun 8y agoYes, someone knows. (Seriously though, I hate it when people online will ask "does anyone know....?" ) But to answer the question, apple say their plans ahead of time. I'm sure that when they release their next model of laptop it will have a revised keyboard.
- wintorez 8y agoNo, they are busing working on Emojis.
- radoslawc 8y agoThey will fix it eventually in their own way, as almost always after losing class action lawsuit they release info saying 'some keyboards' and 'in specific conditions', for 'some users' and so on. Then replacement will be $175. But who else to say it better as my favourite Apple basher Louis Rossman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUaJ8pDlxi8 (see description below video if you want tl;dr) Many people report X1 to be great MBP replacement (I have mid 2014 MBP 13" retina - couldn't be happier and 2017 MBP 15" with s*it strip - well keyboard is awful as well as this touch strip) and from using X1 for a week and from input from people @ work those are not that great either. First of all fan noise and it's rpms it's very annoying, screen quality and resolution (after using MBP with retina) is just horrible, touchpad is just rudimentary - works but can be better.
- shitgoose 8y agois someone still using Apple??
- pier25 8y agoThe keyboard is one problem, but there are others. My secondary machine, a 2014 13'' retina MBP, started having battery problems. Went to an official repair service (Apple does not fix stuff here in Mexico). To replace the battery I would have to replace the whole top panel of the machine (keyboard, trackpad, etc) which costs like $600 USD. Apple would in turn buy the piece removed from my computer and lower what I had to pay to $350 USD. $350 to replace a battery is still ridiculous, specially considering that it's the first piece to degrade on a laptop. Since I don't depend much on that laptop I will live with a bad battery as long as I can. In a year or two I will reconsider my options.
- chendragon 8y agoI'm not entirely sure if the problems with the keyboard are simply inherent. The gap between the keys on the new one and the frame is simply tiny, and since the key doesn't move, and because the key hits the bottom when pressed, anything that gets in there isn't going to come out or let the key work normally. With that said, I still do appreciate the thinness of the new MacBooks. Interestingly enough it also seems to vary between units. The 2017 TBMBP is apparently V3 of Butterfly according to someone who worked at Apple on Reddit, who claims they tried to fix the issue. The 2016 Retina MacBook (12") that I had was able to handle some serious crumbage and never had issues. I at some point had some real crumbly snacks over it and nothing got inside the keyboard. Then I got a 2016 MacBook Pro (13", touch bar). Even with lighter use, and trying to keep anything getting into it, I had basically every problem with that keyboard. The only thing that fixed it was a silicone keyboard cover from Amazon, after taking all the keys off and cleaning under them. Then it never broke again because it was effectively sealed. I wonder if the thinner MacBook has a different keyboard than the Pro (It does, I know that now). I think that might have made a big difference, since the thinner one was definitely less susceptible to pulling stuff into it. Might also have something to do with the airflow from the key going in and out. On the plus side though, the keyboard covers impact typing a LOT less than they used to because of how thin the keyboard is.
- bitwize 8y agoI think they'll address it by eliminating the keyboard entirely à la the MacBook Wheel[0], albeit perhaps with a touch screen. From an absolute, ergonomic standpoint, it will suck. But soft keys won't fail or get crud in them like hard keys do, and Gruber will soon be writing thinkpieces about how the keyboard is the most failure-prone part of a computer, and the complaints about recent MBP keyboards are inherent failings of hardware keyboards themselves rather than Apple skimping on quality, and Apple is taking the lead in something the industry should have done a long time ago by eliminating the hardware keyboard. [0] https://youtu.be/9BnLbv6QYcA https://youtu.be/9BnLbv6QYcA
- handbanana 8y agoIf they do, I’ll buy one
- ppetty 8y agoI wonder what it’s like on Apple’s campuses? I’d guess their employees all have new laptops, or at least Touch Bar equipped models. How many have the Bluetooth Magic Keyboard & Track Pad at their work station too? If they do use external keyboards how do they charge them? From a monitor’s USB3 ports? wall outlet with charger nub? USB C to USB 3 dongle? You have to have one of those methods to charge by Thunderbolt on the Touch Bar laptops … Seriously, that seems like a viable metric to understand satisfaction with the onboard keyboard & trackpad. Or maybe Apple doesn’t think this is as big an issue as it is because so many people are now relying on alternate input devices.