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"There is a contradiction, because the argument in the article assumes the signalling of social standing is THE reason for the behavior." Yes, of course it is

by ckuehne 16y ago

"There is a contradiction, because the argument in the article assumes the signalling of social standing is THE reason for the behavior." Yes, of course it is the (proximate) reason. That is the whole point of the article. It does not argue however, that it happens consciously: "What is interesting about these triads is not that people hold the positions [..] but that people get deep personal satisfaction from arguing the positions [..]" People gain satisfaction from arguing. They don't have to be aware of the fact that they might be doing it to signal social standing but that is the end result of their actions on average. People usually go for status but like to convince themselves (and most often do so successfully) that they do things for a noble course.

metamemetics 16y ago
>People usually go for status but like to believe (and most often do so successfully) that they do things for a noble course. This was never a discussion about people and their actions in general, but a stratified examination of the differences in thought patterns between 3 groups: those of average intelligence, those of moderate intelligence, and those of high intelligence. You are ignoring the context and framework of the article, and making sweeping generalizations where you project your experiences and manner of thinking to not just those similar to you, but to "people" in general. edit: If you're not talking specifically about the "most intelligent" subset it's a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman
- ckuehne 16y ago
  >You are ignoring the context and framework of the article, and making sweeping generalizations where you project your experiences and manner of thinking to not just those similar to you, but to "people" in general. I am neither ignoring the context of the article nor am I making "sweeping generalizations" or "projections". And I would prefer if you don't make these assumptions about me. All I am saying is that signaling does not have to be conscious or self-aware in the sense of "Oh, I have to say this and that to rise to the top of the hipster hierarchy". It might just be the hipster enjoys dressing contrary to the mainstream just as the contrarian enjoys arguing contrary to the mainstream opinion. Hence my analogy: I enjoy sex. It's a heuristic shaped by my genes that would usually serve the purpose of reproduction. People enjoy signaling in the form of buying nice cars of putting on make-up: it's heuristic shaped by our genes that on average (not every signal leads to a better outcome) increases the chance of reproduction. It is not the you actively think "Okay: if I buy a car it might increase my social standing and ultimately increase the chance of girls liking me more.". You just enjoy the stuff. Just as you "just enjoy sex" or the bower bird has an innate desire to build colorful homes. EDIT for clarity.
  - metamemetics 16y ago
    I never affirmed or attacked or recognized your "everything can be simplified to genetic fitness" hypothesis, no clarification needed. If you insist on pursuing this strawman and broadening the debate to new, unrelated philosophical heights, so be it. I will say now that it is childish argument. You give no explanation for why a "gene" should be considered the base unit of evolution rather than an "idea". Especially when natural selection stopped applying to suburban humans with access to healthcare a long time ago. By all indicators, human evolution is now occurring through technology, not genes. Technology and debate over how to use it is the most likely cause of humans diverging into multiple species, not genetics. Genetic biological reproduction seems to be your God. It is the planner and predeterminer, and can be said to have causative power over all actions. The gene is arbitrary. The gene is ambiguous. The gene is defined by man. Genes and genetic reproduction is but one method for the continued existence of things through time. Humans have defeated the gene. We don't need to die and reproduce several times to store and communicate survival information to our descendent's. We have invented language and can write it in a book. You are stuck in genetic determinism, denying any idea of free will. Not to say free will is a suitable answer either. Both are a naive treatment of the subject of causality.
    - ckuehne 16y ago
      I did not argue that "everything can be simplified to genetic fitness". So please, for the second time, stop putting words into my mouth. It is my understanding, that your argument is: 1) Article assumes people discuss ideas to signal social standing. But: 2) People discuss ideas because the enjoy it, 3) and not because they want to signal social standing. Therefore the article is faulty. All I am saying is: 1) and 2) may both be right. The contradiction between 2) and 3) does not arise if people are not aware of the underlying motivations for their behavior. See also rdtsc's comment.
      - metamemetics 16y ago
        >I did not argue that Hey, that's MY point :) Still, in the end of your FIRST line you stated: the ultimate cause for the enjoyment is increase in genetic fitness. >my understanding, that your argument is: 1) ... 2) ... 3) ... All wrong. At no point was a talking about the set "people". I was disagreeing with the traits specific to the "top of the pyramid" proposed by the article within the domain of intellectual debate. Which is a small subset of the set "people" in a very small subset of the domain of possible actions people can perform. I'll have to make sure to rigorously pair any hypothesis with its counter-hypothesis when I risk posting on HN in the future.
- jacabado 16y ago
  Come on guys let's go back to discussion, which from my interpretation was if the "underlying motivation for argument, debate, or discussion is to signal social standing". I guess ckuehne opinion is that it unconciously is and I love his example. How could we discuss that? I would love to know examples of places and people that behave the way metamemetics tells us. I can't match any subset of people, or even any subset of intelligent subset of pople that match that behavior.
  - metamemetics 16y ago
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Availability_bias http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Availability_bias What about the great thinkers of humanity whose writing only became popular post-humously? What about all of the thinkers whose beliefs got them executed? What if their writings were so unpopular as to lead to their persecution. Surely, they were just consciously or unconsciously holding those beliefs to signal social standing! What if they had a conscious and explicit reason for why they held their beliefs? What if said explicit reason wasn't to increase their social standing? Does their explicitly stated reason for why they hold those beliefs become invalid because, hey, the REAL reason behind that must be an evolutionary function of genetic reproduction? At what point do we allow others to be conscious of their own actions? Isn't it extremely presumptuous to project unconscious social basis as the fundamental derivative of all their beliefs? Does going down this path lead to interesting discussion or zealously quash it? My argument was NOT that on average, the population of people do NOT follow ckuehne's and the article's assumption of motive. That is trivial and not very interesting, we can even assume that is true if you wish. My argument was on the top of the pyramid, it is less likely to hold for the greatest thinkers and philosophers.
Confusion 16y ago
They don't have to be aware of the fact that they might be doing it to signal social standing Here you say 'might', while it once again becomes 'usually' here: People usually go for status I repeat: I find this last assertion incredibly annoying. I'm a regular guy and I think that I don't argue for status or social standing, but because I'm interested in 'the truth', insofar as that means 'what works best for us', where 'us' includes everyone I care about. I'd like to see someone making a convincing argument to the contrary, that doesn't involve supposed historical and psychological facts about 'human nature' that are, without supporting argument, extended to include individuals like me that that someone are having a discussion with. It's a logical fallacy to make some vague accusations like "you are just arguing this because of concern for your social standing". I will have none of that. I can easily invert the reasoning: if you doubt my motives, then you are the one that seems to be looking for an ad hominem way out of the argument, because you are losing and don't want to lose your standing. This kind of argument leads nowhere.
- Xurinos 16y ago
  I'm a regular guy and I think that I don't argue for status or social standing, but because I'm interested in 'the truth', insofar as that means 'what works best for us', where 'us' includes everyone I care about. I find it fascinating that as soon as you tried to counter an argument about signaling social standing, you directly signaled social standing. Truly, we do not always know the real motivations behind our own actions and words. You may need to do more introspection. "I'm a regular guy" -- This establishes a social status you want us to see. You are trying to create a peer relationship with other "regular" people, to connect with your audience on a friend/peer/informal level. Then you follow up this statement with an assertion that you wish to speak for others ("I'm interested in 'the truth' ... where 'us' includes everyone I care about"). You have elevated yourself to leader/spokesperson status. You make another social distinction when you say "individuals like me", and here you are trying to tell everyone -- in so many words -- that you are unique and special. Whether you realized you were doing this, you employed arguments from standpoints of status. I cannot find the article, but I read an account from a guy who took a few-month vow of silence for fun to see what it was like. He had a number of interesting mental state changes and experiences, all of which seemed beneficial, but one thing that stuck out in my mind was a little principle of communication that he felt he discovered: Almost all our speech is to express existence, to say, "Hey, look at me! I am here!" In forums where people pass ideas back and forth, it is often, "I exist! I have something to share that you will find useful! You might like me if I share it! Look at me!" And yes, the fact that I am responding is, indeed, to draw attention to myself, to establish myself as something of an authority on this issue, given my limited experiences in this lifetime... is just a pompous way of saying, "I am here". :)

by ckuehne 16y ago

metamemetics 16y ago

>People usually go for status but like to believe (and most often do so successfully) that they do things for a noble course. This was never a discussion about people and their actions in general, but a stratified examination of the differences in thought patterns between 3 groups: those of average intelligence, those of moderate intelligence, and those of high intelligence. You are ignoring the context and framework of the article, and making sweeping generalizations where you project your experiences and manner of thinking to not just those similar to you, but to "people" in general. edit: If you're not talking specifically about the "most intelligent" subset it's a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman

ckuehne 16y ago
>You are ignoring the context and framework of the article, and making sweeping generalizations where you project your experiences and manner of thinking to not just those similar to you, but to "people" in general. I am neither ignoring the context of the article nor am I making "sweeping generalizations" or "projections". And I would prefer if you don't make these assumptions about me. All I am saying is that signaling does not have to be conscious or self-aware in the sense of "Oh, I have to say this and that to rise to the top of the hipster hierarchy". It might just be the hipster enjoys dressing contrary to the mainstream just as the contrarian enjoys arguing contrary to the mainstream opinion. Hence my analogy: I enjoy sex. It's a heuristic shaped by my genes that would usually serve the purpose of reproduction. People enjoy signaling in the form of buying nice cars of putting on make-up: it's heuristic shaped by our genes that on average (not every signal leads to a better outcome) increases the chance of reproduction. It is not the you actively think "Okay: if I buy a car it might increase my social standing and ultimately increase the chance of girls liking me more.". You just enjoy the stuff. Just as you "just enjoy sex" or the bower bird has an innate desire to build colorful homes. EDIT for clarity.
- metamemetics 16y ago
  I never affirmed or attacked or recognized your "everything can be simplified to genetic fitness" hypothesis, no clarification needed. If you insist on pursuing this strawman and broadening the debate to new, unrelated philosophical heights, so be it. I will say now that it is childish argument. You give no explanation for why a "gene" should be considered the base unit of evolution rather than an "idea". Especially when natural selection stopped applying to suburban humans with access to healthcare a long time ago. By all indicators, human evolution is now occurring through technology, not genes. Technology and debate over how to use it is the most likely cause of humans diverging into multiple species, not genetics. Genetic biological reproduction seems to be your God. It is the planner and predeterminer, and can be said to have causative power over all actions. The gene is arbitrary. The gene is ambiguous. The gene is defined by man. Genes and genetic reproduction is but one method for the continued existence of things through time. Humans have defeated the gene. We don't need to die and reproduce several times to store and communicate survival information to our descendent's. We have invented language and can write it in a book. You are stuck in genetic determinism, denying any idea of free will. Not to say free will is a suitable answer either. Both are a naive treatment of the subject of causality.
  - ckuehne 16y ago
    I did not argue that "everything can be simplified to genetic fitness". So please, for the second time, stop putting words into my mouth. It is my understanding, that your argument is: 1) Article assumes people discuss ideas to signal social standing. But: 2) People discuss ideas because the enjoy it, 3) and not because they want to signal social standing. Therefore the article is faulty. All I am saying is: 1) and 2) may both be right. The contradiction between 2) and 3) does not arise if people are not aware of the underlying motivations for their behavior. See also rdtsc's comment.
    - metamemetics 16y ago
      >I did not argue that Hey, that's MY point :) Still, in the end of your FIRST line you stated: the ultimate cause for the enjoyment is increase in genetic fitness. >my understanding, that your argument is: 1) ... 2) ... 3) ... All wrong. At no point was a talking about the set "people". I was disagreeing with the traits specific to the "top of the pyramid" proposed by the article within the domain of intellectual debate. Which is a small subset of the set "people" in a very small subset of the domain of possible actions people can perform. I'll have to make sure to rigorously pair any hypothesis with its counter-hypothesis when I risk posting on HN in the future.
jacabado 16y ago
Come on guys let's go back to discussion, which from my interpretation was if the "underlying motivation for argument, debate, or discussion is to signal social standing". I guess ckuehne opinion is that it unconciously is and I love his example. How could we discuss that? I would love to know examples of places and people that behave the way metamemetics tells us. I can't match any subset of people, or even any subset of intelligent subset of pople that match that behavior.
- metamemetics 16y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Availability_bias http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Availability_bias What about the great thinkers of humanity whose writing only became popular post-humously? What about all of the thinkers whose beliefs got them executed? What if their writings were so unpopular as to lead to their persecution. Surely, they were just consciously or unconsciously holding those beliefs to signal social standing! What if they had a conscious and explicit reason for why they held their beliefs? What if said explicit reason wasn't to increase their social standing? Does their explicitly stated reason for why they hold those beliefs become invalid because, hey, the REAL reason behind that must be an evolutionary function of genetic reproduction? At what point do we allow others to be conscious of their own actions? Isn't it extremely presumptuous to project unconscious social basis as the fundamental derivative of all their beliefs? Does going down this path lead to interesting discussion or zealously quash it? My argument was NOT that on average, the population of people do NOT follow ckuehne's and the article's assumption of motive. That is trivial and not very interesting, we can even assume that is true if you wish. My argument was on the top of the pyramid, it is less likely to hold for the greatest thinkers and philosophers.

Confusion 16y ago

They don't have to be aware of the fact that they might be doing it to signal social standing Here you say 'might', while it once again becomes 'usually' here: People usually go for status I repeat: I find this last assertion incredibly annoying. I'm a regular guy and I think that I don't argue for status or social standing, but because I'm interested in 'the truth', insofar as that means 'what works best for us', where 'us' includes everyone I care about. I'd like to see someone making a convincing argument to the contrary, that doesn't involve supposed historical and psychological facts about 'human nature' that are, without supporting argument, extended to include individuals like me that that someone are having a discussion with. It's a logical fallacy to make some vague accusations like "you are just arguing this because of concern for your social standing". I will have none of that. I can easily invert the reasoning: if you doubt my motives, then you are the one that seems to be looking for an ad hominem way out of the argument, because you are losing and don't want to lose your standing. This kind of argument leads nowhere.

Xurinos 16y ago
I'm a regular guy and I think that I don't argue for status or social standing, but because I'm interested in 'the truth', insofar as that means 'what works best for us', where 'us' includes everyone I care about. I find it fascinating that as soon as you tried to counter an argument about signaling social standing, you directly signaled social standing. Truly, we do not always know the real motivations behind our own actions and words. You may need to do more introspection. "I'm a regular guy" -- This establishes a social status you want us to see. You are trying to create a peer relationship with other "regular" people, to connect with your audience on a friend/peer/informal level. Then you follow up this statement with an assertion that you wish to speak for others ("I'm interested in 'the truth' ... where 'us' includes everyone I care about"). You have elevated yourself to leader/spokesperson status. You make another social distinction when you say "individuals like me", and here you are trying to tell everyone -- in so many words -- that you are unique and special. Whether you realized you were doing this, you employed arguments from standpoints of status. I cannot find the article, but I read an account from a guy who took a few-month vow of silence for fun to see what it was like. He had a number of interesting mental state changes and experiences, all of which seemed beneficial, but one thing that stuck out in my mind was a little principle of communication that he felt he discovered: Almost all our speech is to express existence, to say, "Hey, look at me! I am here!" In forums where people pass ideas back and forth, it is often, "I exist! I have something to share that you will find useful! You might like me if I share it! Look at me!" And yes, the fact that I am responding is, indeed, to draw attention to myself, to establish myself as something of an authority on this issue, given my limited experiences in this lifetime... is just a pompous way of saying, "I am here". :)