4 ms·

This is just more propaganda from Mr so called 'Bright'. Sure some things in D are 'interesting', but it's also a very, very complex beast, full of bugs (some

This is just more propaganda from Mr so called 'Bright'. Sure some things in D are 'interesting', but it's also a very, very complex beast, full of bugs (some known, and heaps more not-known). btw. Do not participate on the D forums either, it's just a propoganda tool for the D Foundation (i.e. they filter (or moderate as they like to call it), anything that says anything negative about d. In the end, if D has anything interesting, that we can't live without, we can just take it and integrate it one or the many 'proper' programming languages. Don't waste your time with d. You'll only ever end up wishing you had spent that time on a proper language, that has a well supported ecosphere.

WalterBright 8y ago
> anything that says anything negative about d. Hardly, or half the posts would be gone :-) What we do moderate is posts where one person harasses another. This happens only rarely, except we had a recent large volume of such coming from a Tor node. So posts coming from the Tor node need approval from one of the moderators for the time being (until that person goes away). You can also use the NNTP interface to access the forums, which doesn't moderate in advance (that only happens if you use the web interface to post). The web forum software is a shell around the NNTP interface. It's a bit difficult to make a HackerNews/Reddit style moderation system work on it because of the way NNTP works.
- TorUser 8y ago
  sorry, but there are countless examples, where well known members of the community harassed non-members, because they said something negative about d. but the only ones that are considered to be harassers, or subject to moderation, are the non-members. In addition, there is no visibility into does the moderation, how long it might take, what would be filtered, and for what reason. Therefore the forum's use of moderation is at best, suspicious, and can easily become a tool for abuse. There should be a record of who filters what, when, and why. And this should be made public also (although people should not be forced to subscribe to them). In any case, people are better of spending their time on stuff that is actually supported, and can get them employment.
  - WalterBright 8y ago
    > sorry, but there are countless examples, where well known members of the community harassed non-members, because they said something negative about d. If you've got specific messages in mind, email me the message numbers. Ex-post-facto moderation relies on someone letting us know of a problem message. The alternative is pre-moderation, which you've said you don't like. > well known members of the community Note that the troll I referred to would sock-puppet well known members, including myself. How would you suggest dealing with such a disruptive person? (The volume of his postings, all with different pseudo-accounts, was pretty large for a while.) > for no reason We've posted several times that professional demeanor is expected. I doubt other HN'ers are interested in this exchange, so I'd prefer taking it offline and you can email me. See walterbright.com for the address.
    - TorUser 8y ago
      hangon... I thought you said "D only has advantages." what are the advantages of being sock-puppeted on the D forums?
    - schlupa 8y ago
      Don't bother, it's the narcissist KingJoffrey who got no traction in the forum with his complaint of private access at module level. He shows all the symptoms of narcissism like "exaggerated feelings of self-importance, excessive need for admiration, and lack of empathy". They also are feel entitled and vindictive so they don't hesitate to use unethical behavior for vengeance, like using fake accounts to post garbage (he had even posted under your name). So be careful, I don't know what we can do against that but awareness is imho at least a start. Here the list of traits that could be observed in the private complain thread: - Grandiosity with expectations of superior treatment from other people - Fixated on fantasies of power, success, intelligence, attractiveness, etc. - Self-perception of being unique, superior, and associated with high-status people and institutions - Needing continual admiration from others - Sense of entitlement to special treatment and to obedience from others - Exploitative of others to achieve personal gain - Unwilling to empathize with the feelings, wishes, and needs of other people - Intensely envious of others, and the belief that others are equally envious of them - Pompous and arrogant demeanor
WuHu 8y ago
I don't know about the moderation stuff, but yes, from what I have read, D is very very complex. Also it seems to have a multiple personality disorder. Mr Bright seemingly wants it to be the next C. Mr Andrescu seemingly wants it to be the worlds best meta template programming language. D users are equally split (is it a better C#, a better Python, a better this, a better that??). It does seem to be very complex, undisciplined vision for a language that aims for mainstream use. Then you have all the problems with the lack of library support for this or that, lack of support tools for this or that ...etc etc. If you read the forums, people spend far too much time debugging their code, due to a variety of strange things that occur in the language due to all its different personalities trying to live in the same place. So don't be decieved - there really are plenty of disadvantages in using D (and perhaps they outweigh the advantages).
- p0nce 8y ago
  > karma: 2 You are astroturfing HN like you were impersonating people on the D forums. Please stop.
  - WuHu 8y ago
    What? I just expressed an opinion about a programming language. I didn't realised that was a crime on HN. You must be one of those D forum members that don't like other expressing opinions about D, (i.e. ones like TorUser warns us of.)
- germandiago 8y ago
  Did you try to use it? I did, not very intensively for now, but the general feeling has been good: - I can use it from day one if I know C++, something to consider if you want to get things done - it interoperates better than other languages with my C++ stuff - the metaprogramming capabilities are nice and familiar to someone coming from C++ - the standard library is well prepared and the ranges, algorithms, named tuples and others are well-thought designs that have zero overhead (they use compile-time mechanisms for algorithm selection or tuple code generation) - std.experimental.allocator: you can control memory management, though I did not use this myself and I do not know how mature it is - there are efforts to make the language more gc-free friendly if that is what you need - there is a switch for betterC that allows you to use a subset that is powerful yet still very light - compile times are good Is it complex? Well, it can get as complex as you want, but using it without being too fancy is joyful and easier than C++, definitely. I have been investigating several of these languages for a while, concretely, a bit closer Nim, Go and D. Go is very nice at what it does, but that's it. It can be written and used in teams easily, but it is too specialized: by specialized I mean you have the GC with the channels and goroutines systems but you do not have control on memory layout or indirection or allocation AFAIK. Interoperability is also more difficult than with D. Nim looks promising. The problem is that it looks promising, but the reality is that it is not ready for production use yet. Also, something that should look like an advantage looks like a disadvantage to me: it looks clean because it follows a Python syntax. D chose to follow C and C++. That is an advantage, no matter how clean Nim looks, because at the end, most people know C. The library ecosystem is far better in D also. Interoperability: I think Nim is easy to mix with C, but not with C++ and Objective-C. Do you really know of anyone that would adopt a language without a realistic migration path of their code bases? Maybe for hobby projects yes, but for enterprise? Because these things can get painful easily and they make for a lot of time wasted. D: powerful and understandable metaprogramming if you come from C++ (I saw Nim's metaprogramming and I must say it also impressed me, that is true). Good migration path. More mature than Nim. General purpose, can control memory allocation. Trying to solve real world problems. The most pragmatic tool for general purpose programming if you want good performance and getting things done, something I care a lot, because at the end the language is just a tool. I do not need a perfect tool, I need something convenient that lets me finish things. From this pack, for me, D is the only one that is a positioned candidate to be both general purpose and mature enough at this moment. Nim is not there yet, unfortunately, and interoperability and lack of maturity play against it strongly. If you add that almost anyone knows C and many people know C++, but many people will just not know Python, that is something else to consider. As for Go, it is too specialized in one area, which does very well. But it is what it is.
schlupa 8y ago
Oh, look the annoying D forum troll KingJoffrey / DigitalDesigns / many other sock puppets.
- TorUser 8y ago
  Looks like the D Foundation has sent out its sockpuppet minions again. Here we go again... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36qYgUnrgxs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36qYgUnrgxs

WalterBright 8y ago

> anything that says anything negative about d. Hardly, or half the posts would be gone :-) What we do moderate is posts where one person harasses another. This happens only rarely, except we had a recent large volume of such coming from a Tor node. So posts coming from the Tor node need approval from one of the moderators for the time being (until that person goes away). You can also use the NNTP interface to access the forums, which doesn't moderate in advance (that only happens if you use the web interface to post). The web forum software is a shell around the NNTP interface. It's a bit difficult to make a HackerNews/Reddit style moderation system work on it because of the way NNTP works.

TorUser 8y ago
sorry, but there are countless examples, where well known members of the community harassed non-members, because they said something negative about d. but the only ones that are considered to be harassers, or subject to moderation, are the non-members. In addition, there is no visibility into does the moderation, how long it might take, what would be filtered, and for what reason. Therefore the forum's use of moderation is at best, suspicious, and can easily become a tool for abuse. There should be a record of who filters what, when, and why. And this should be made public also (although people should not be forced to subscribe to them). In any case, people are better of spending their time on stuff that is actually supported, and can get them employment.
- WalterBright 8y ago
  > sorry, but there are countless examples, where well known members of the community harassed non-members, because they said something negative about d. If you've got specific messages in mind, email me the message numbers. Ex-post-facto moderation relies on someone letting us know of a problem message. The alternative is pre-moderation, which you've said you don't like. > well known members of the community Note that the troll I referred to would sock-puppet well known members, including myself. How would you suggest dealing with such a disruptive person? (The volume of his postings, all with different pseudo-accounts, was pretty large for a while.) > for no reason We've posted several times that professional demeanor is expected. I doubt other HN'ers are interested in this exchange, so I'd prefer taking it offline and you can email me. See walterbright.com for the address.
  - TorUser 8y ago
    hangon... I thought you said "D only has advantages." what are the advantages of being sock-puppeted on the D forums?
  - schlupa 8y ago
    Don't bother, it's the narcissist KingJoffrey who got no traction in the forum with his complaint of private access at module level. He shows all the symptoms of narcissism like "exaggerated feelings of self-importance, excessive need for admiration, and lack of empathy". They also are feel entitled and vindictive so they don't hesitate to use unethical behavior for vengeance, like using fake accounts to post garbage (he had even posted under your name). So be careful, I don't know what we can do against that but awareness is imho at least a start. Here the list of traits that could be observed in the private complain thread: - Grandiosity with expectations of superior treatment from other people - Fixated on fantasies of power, success, intelligence, attractiveness, etc. - Self-perception of being unique, superior, and associated with high-status people and institutions - Needing continual admiration from others - Sense of entitlement to special treatment and to obedience from others - Exploitative of others to achieve personal gain - Unwilling to empathize with the feelings, wishes, and needs of other people - Intensely envious of others, and the belief that others are equally envious of them - Pompous and arrogant demeanor

WuHu 8y ago

I don't know about the moderation stuff, but yes, from what I have read, D is very very complex. Also it seems to have a multiple personality disorder. Mr Bright seemingly wants it to be the next C. Mr Andrescu seemingly wants it to be the worlds best meta template programming language. D users are equally split (is it a better C#, a better Python, a better this, a better that??). It does seem to be very complex, undisciplined vision for a language that aims for mainstream use. Then you have all the problems with the lack of library support for this or that, lack of support tools for this or that ...etc etc. If you read the forums, people spend far too much time debugging their code, due to a variety of strange things that occur in the language due to all its different personalities trying to live in the same place. So don't be decieved - there really are plenty of disadvantages in using D (and perhaps they outweigh the advantages).

p0nce 8y ago
> karma: 2 You are astroturfing HN like you were impersonating people on the D forums. Please stop.
- WuHu 8y ago
  What? I just expressed an opinion about a programming language. I didn't realised that was a crime on HN. You must be one of those D forum members that don't like other expressing opinions about D, (i.e. ones like TorUser warns us of.)
germandiago 8y ago
Did you try to use it? I did, not very intensively for now, but the general feeling has been good: - I can use it from day one if I know C++, something to consider if you want to get things done - it interoperates better than other languages with my C++ stuff - the metaprogramming capabilities are nice and familiar to someone coming from C++ - the standard library is well prepared and the ranges, algorithms, named tuples and others are well-thought designs that have zero overhead (they use compile-time mechanisms for algorithm selection or tuple code generation) - std.experimental.allocator: you can control memory management, though I did not use this myself and I do not know how mature it is - there are efforts to make the language more gc-free friendly if that is what you need - there is a switch for betterC that allows you to use a subset that is powerful yet still very light - compile times are good Is it complex? Well, it can get as complex as you want, but using it without being too fancy is joyful and easier than C++, definitely. I have been investigating several of these languages for a while, concretely, a bit closer Nim, Go and D. Go is very nice at what it does, but that's it. It can be written and used in teams easily, but it is too specialized: by specialized I mean you have the GC with the channels and goroutines systems but you do not have control on memory layout or indirection or allocation AFAIK. Interoperability is also more difficult than with D. Nim looks promising. The problem is that it looks promising, but the reality is that it is not ready for production use yet. Also, something that should look like an advantage looks like a disadvantage to me: it looks clean because it follows a Python syntax. D chose to follow C and C++. That is an advantage, no matter how clean Nim looks, because at the end, most people know C. The library ecosystem is far better in D also. Interoperability: I think Nim is easy to mix with C, but not with C++ and Objective-C. Do you really know of anyone that would adopt a language without a realistic migration path of their code bases? Maybe for hobby projects yes, but for enterprise? Because these things can get painful easily and they make for a lot of time wasted. D: powerful and understandable metaprogramming if you come from C++ (I saw Nim's metaprogramming and I must say it also impressed me, that is true). Good migration path. More mature than Nim. General purpose, can control memory allocation. Trying to solve real world problems. The most pragmatic tool for general purpose programming if you want good performance and getting things done, something I care a lot, because at the end the language is just a tool. I do not need a perfect tool, I need something convenient that lets me finish things. From this pack, for me, D is the only one that is a positioned candidate to be both general purpose and mature enough at this moment. Nim is not there yet, unfortunately, and interoperability and lack of maturity play against it strongly. If you add that almost anyone knows C and many people know C++, but many people will just not know Python, that is something else to consider. As for Go, it is too specialized in one area, which does very well. But it is what it is.

schlupa 8y ago

Oh, look the annoying D forum troll KingJoffrey / DigitalDesigns / many other sock puppets.

TorUser 8y ago
Looks like the D Foundation has sent out its sockpuppet minions again. Here we go again... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36qYgUnrgxs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36qYgUnrgxs