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I do not hold a license but have plenty of simulator experience. Do they not teach how to use an attitude indicator even for a VFR license? Or how to do an inst

by chopin 8y ago

I do not hold a license but have plenty of simulator experience. Do they not teach how to use an attitude indicator even for a VFR license? Or how to do an instrument scan? I thought this is pretty basic. Even with a good forecast, you can get caught badly by weather. The linked document indicates that invertion can happen with no visibility, but can't this being prevented bay paying attention to the attitude indicator.

unoti 8y ago
To get a VFR license, yes, you have to know about everything you mentioned. You must learn about all the instruments. What kind of instrument scans to do in various kinds of situations. Ascent/descent, climbing turns, level turns into a heading, etc. VFR pilots do learn about reading the instruments, but at the same time they learn about the dangers that come with focusing too much on the instruments— such as not watching for traffic or other awareness issues. They also must learn a ton about weather. So a VFR pilot is trained in some of the basic instrument reading things needed for low visibility flight. But there’s a lot more expertise involved in safely flying instruments than in visual flight. Precise, mentally demanding procedures, multitasking. VFR pilots are also required to learn about why instrument flying is so much more difficult. A big part of the reason is spatial disorientation[1]. Your senses tell you one thing while the instruments tell you another. And the scary part is that when the equipment fails, sometimes it’s your senses that are more correct. Pilots either blindly following their senses when their senses are wrong, or ignoring their senses when their instruments are wrong— both of those kill people. To compare flying in a real small plane versus a simulator: When you go into a stall in a small plane, the feeling of dropping feels a lot like a roller coaster, with your stomach coming up into your mouth. That woozy feeling is much the same. And certain kinds of weather can cause a similar rapid change in elevation even without you changing the attitude of the plane. The small plane is so much more (potentially) wild than a big jet, it’s a bit more like being in a flying lawnmower. A simulator does teach lots of the skills you need to know, and is especially useful for establishing muscle memory for things like instrument scans and other procedures. Then doing that in a real plane is like doing the same thing, but on a wild roller coaster, and with the full knowledge that if you mess up you’ll die. You should go for a ride! Tons of places offer very cheap introductory flights where you get to take the controls for a bit during that first flight. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spatial_disorientation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spatial_disorientation
phkahler 8y ago
Currently a student. I was having a rough day getting my approaches right. Paying too much attention to my speed and such and coming in too fast anyway. On the next round, still in the downwind, my instructor reached over and turned the brightness on the display down to zero. It's an all in one Garmin setup so I was instrument blind - no altimeter, airspeed, tachometer, nothing. I pulled my eyes up, looked out the window, said "thanks" and flew the approach correctly. VFR flying is mostly about the V. Look out the window, feel what's happening, hear and feel the engine power setting, know where you are in relation to everything. It's supposed to be a visceral experience. Instruments are important, but so is knowing how to fly in the sense that a bird knows.
HeyLaughingBoy 8y ago
Yes.Actually all Private Pilot students spend a fair amount of time under the hood (a device that prevents you from being able to see outside the airplane) practicing unusual attitude recoveries. Basically, you close your eyes while the instructor tosses the airplane all over the sky for a couple minutes in an attempt to get your inner ear fluid sloshing around to disorient you, then puts the airplane into a state where, e.g., you're in a deep stall, nose up, turning left, then instructs you to open your eyes and determine the airplane's attitude from reading the instruments. Once you have the attitude correctly described, then you return it to straight & level using instruments. This was actually some of the most fun I had during pilot training. It was like a puzzle under stress (you only have so long before you hit the ground) figuring out what the airplane was doing and describing how to get out of the situation. The point of teaching this to VFR students is to prevent the "178 seconds" situation so you will hopefully have enough instrument experience and calmness to turn the airplane around and get back into clear air. The point of the article is to drive home the point that using your normal human instincts and feelings will kill you in that situation. You can be completely inverted and feel just fine. Only trusting what the instruments say will get you out of trouble (edit: and cross checking them to be sure you don't rely on a failed instrument). And actually, the situation can deteriorate faster than you realize. I recall days with my instructor where, while it was technically VFR flight, it was so hazy that I spent a lot of time using instruments because I couldn't see the horizon very well.
mymuss 8y ago
Paying attention to the attitude indicator is absolutely not the right way to fly in visual conditions for many reasons. The best way to deal with reduced visibility under VFR is by doing a thorough preflight planning (e.g. stay on the ground when the weather is marginal) and applying proper risk management techniques in the air (e.g. divert, turn back, land etc when the weather deteriorates) In the U.S. we are required to give at least 3 hours of instrument training for Private Pilot license. There is no such requirement for Sport Pilot or Recreation Pilot License In my experience teaching hundreds of private, instrument, and commercial pilots 3 hours is not enough to develop any kind of instrument proficiency. For people who take the instrument rating course it usually takes around 20 hours to develop minimal instrument proficiency. Simulator training helps a lot when done with a qualified instructor who understands how to teach instruments in a sim (unfortunately many don't). But even the students who nail the sim portion often struggle in the real aircraft when they are faced with task saturation.

by chopin 8y ago

unoti 8y ago

To get a VFR license, yes, you have to know about everything you mentioned. You must learn about all the instruments. What kind of instrument scans to do in various kinds of situations. Ascent/descent, climbing turns, level turns into a heading, etc. VFR pilots do learn about reading the instruments, but at the same time they learn about the dangers that come with focusing too much on the instruments— such as not watching for traffic or other awareness issues. They also must learn a ton about weather. So a VFR pilot is trained in some of the basic instrument reading things needed for low visibility flight. But there’s a lot more expertise involved in safely flying instruments than in visual flight. Precise, mentally demanding procedures, multitasking. VFR pilots are also required to learn about why instrument flying is so much more difficult. A big part of the reason is spatial disorientation[1]. Your senses tell you one thing while the instruments tell you another. And the scary part is that when the equipment fails, sometimes it’s your senses that are more correct. Pilots either blindly following their senses when their senses are wrong, or ignoring their senses when their instruments are wrong— both of those kill people. To compare flying in a real small plane versus a simulator: When you go into a stall in a small plane, the feeling of dropping feels a lot like a roller coaster, with your stomach coming up into your mouth. That woozy feeling is much the same. And certain kinds of weather can cause a similar rapid change in elevation even without you changing the attitude of the plane. The small plane is so much more (potentially) wild than a big jet, it’s a bit more like being in a flying lawnmower. A simulator does teach lots of the skills you need to know, and is especially useful for establishing muscle memory for things like instrument scans and other procedures. Then doing that in a real plane is like doing the same thing, but on a wild roller coaster, and with the full knowledge that if you mess up you’ll die. You should go for a ride! Tons of places offer very cheap introductory flights where you get to take the controls for a bit during that first flight. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spatial_disorientation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spatial_disorientation

phkahler 8y ago

Currently a student. I was having a rough day getting my approaches right. Paying too much attention to my speed and such and coming in too fast anyway. On the next round, still in the downwind, my instructor reached over and turned the brightness on the display down to zero. It's an all in one Garmin setup so I was instrument blind - no altimeter, airspeed, tachometer, nothing. I pulled my eyes up, looked out the window, said "thanks" and flew the approach correctly. VFR flying is mostly about the V. Look out the window, feel what's happening, hear and feel the engine power setting, know where you are in relation to everything. It's supposed to be a visceral experience. Instruments are important, but so is knowing how to fly in the sense that a bird knows.

HeyLaughingBoy 8y ago

Yes.Actually all Private Pilot students spend a fair amount of time under the hood (a device that prevents you from being able to see outside the airplane) practicing unusual attitude recoveries. Basically, you close your eyes while the instructor tosses the airplane all over the sky for a couple minutes in an attempt to get your inner ear fluid sloshing around to disorient you, then puts the airplane into a state where, e.g., you're in a deep stall, nose up, turning left, then instructs you to open your eyes and determine the airplane's attitude from reading the instruments. Once you have the attitude correctly described, then you return it to straight & level using instruments. This was actually some of the most fun I had during pilot training. It was like a puzzle under stress (you only have so long before you hit the ground) figuring out what the airplane was doing and describing how to get out of the situation. The point of teaching this to VFR students is to prevent the "178 seconds" situation so you will hopefully have enough instrument experience and calmness to turn the airplane around and get back into clear air. The point of the article is to drive home the point that using your normal human instincts and feelings will kill you in that situation. You can be completely inverted and feel just fine. Only trusting what the instruments say will get you out of trouble (edit: and cross checking them to be sure you don't rely on a failed instrument). And actually, the situation can deteriorate faster than you realize. I recall days with my instructor where, while it was technically VFR flight, it was so hazy that I spent a lot of time using instruments because I couldn't see the horizon very well.

mymuss 8y ago

Paying attention to the attitude indicator is absolutely not the right way to fly in visual conditions for many reasons. The best way to deal with reduced visibility under VFR is by doing a thorough preflight planning (e.g. stay on the ground when the weather is marginal) and applying proper risk management techniques in the air (e.g. divert, turn back, land etc when the weather deteriorates) In the U.S. we are required to give at least 3 hours of instrument training for Private Pilot license. There is no such requirement for Sport Pilot or Recreation Pilot License In my experience teaching hundreds of private, instrument, and commercial pilots 3 hours is not enough to develop any kind of instrument proficiency. For people who take the instrument rating course it usually takes around 20 hours to develop minimal instrument proficiency. Simulator training helps a lot when done with a qualified instructor who understands how to teach instruments in a sim (unfortunately many don't). But even the students who nail the sim portion often struggle in the real aircraft when they are faced with task saturation.