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As someone that didn’t go to Harvard, didn’t apply to Harvard, and wouldn’t have gotten in if I had applied I really and truly do not understand the thought pro

As someone that didn’t go to Harvard, didn’t apply to Harvard, and wouldn’t have gotten in if I had applied I really and truly do not understand the thought process behind the individuals bringing on the suit. Do they feel entitled to admission? Is not getting into Harvard specifically such a terrible injustice that it deserves to be litigated in the court of law? What did they lose by not gaining admission in a procedure that is a black box in nearly all institutions?

statguy 8y ago
> Is not getting into Harvard specifically such a terrible injustice that it deserves to be litigated in the court of law? What did they lose by not gaining admission in a procedure that is a black box in nearly all institutions? Maybe not, but a lot of top-tier institutions follow very similar admission policies and so an individual is at the risk of being excluded from all of them solely because of their race. Let's say if this suit against Harvard is successful, it will establish precedent and other institutions will be forced re-examine and amend their admission policies.
- akhilcacharya 8y ago
  >individual is at the risk of being excluded from all of them solely because of their race. For one thing, UC's and CalTech don't. And even if they were, my resounding response is.... so? Has society regressed to the point where if you don't go to an elite private institution (i.e. not your flagship public university) you will never achieve anything? If the true problem is a lack of social upward mobility, I feel that's a bigger problem than worrying about who gets to win the lottery. I say this as someone who got into the other school targeted by the group (UNC, I didn't go) while also being Asian and overall very mediocre.
  - statguy 8y ago
    You are not allowed to drive an Audi and have to settle for a Toyota Corolla, just because of your race, even though you have the money. See what I am getting at...
    - akhilcacharya 8y ago
      I’m not allowed to ever drive an Audi no matter what I end up earning after the age of 18 (to continue the analogy) - so I have difficulty sympathizing with the people that have to drive Lexuses instead.
amarkov 8y ago
Being incidentally rejected might not be worth a lawsuit. But the plaintiffs claim, in part, that Harvard is specifically trying to discriminate against Asian applicants to keep Asians out of the student body. I think that's worth litigating over if it's true.
- gowld 8y ago
  Astute readers will recall _100 years ago_ when Harvard had an issue with a glut of over-performing Jewish students, and had debates that presaged today's debates about discrimination and diversity. The old debate may even be more illuminating than today's debate, since back then many of the racists were shamelessly clear-spoken about their race-based hatred. https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/expose/book/cloak-meritocracy-harvard%E2%80%99s-%E2%80%9Cnew-plan%E2%80%9D-admissions-and-%E2%80%9Cjewish-problem https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/expose/book/cloak-meritocrac...
  - mc32 8y ago
    This kind of thing also occurred in the USSR because the native Russians were underperforming, so many elite institutions had implicit quotas such that one might have answers struck down in qualifying exams for being “too right”. It’s a hard political problem (both the discriminated against and the ones benefitting from the quota have a valid argument). Obvs an unbiased solution would be to admit the best, regardless, but for social reasons, it may not be optimal.
  - Torgo 8y ago
    I am certain that, unlike 100 years ago, the fear isn't that Asians are crowding out white males; but that they are crowding out other minority groups. That is an entirely different motivation than anti-Semitism.
- akhilcacharya 8y ago
  >that Harvard is specifically trying to discriminate against Asian applicants to keep Asians out of the student body. If this was truly the intention they are doing a very poor job of it. Class of 2021 is 22.2% Asian-American according to their website.
gowld 8y ago
> What did they lose They lost access to a world-class education, professional network, and maybe >$1million in lifetime income premium over their alternate life path.
- akhilcacharya 8y ago
  Are you saying I'm permanently worse off for going to a state school? That's a totally legitimate viewpoint that I could be sympathetic to. But I also keep hearing that your undergrad degree doesn't matter - often by the same people that complain about AA after I mention I go to a state school. Now which is it?

statguy 8y ago

> Is not getting into Harvard specifically such a terrible injustice that it deserves to be litigated in the court of law? What did they lose by not gaining admission in a procedure that is a black box in nearly all institutions? Maybe not, but a lot of top-tier institutions follow very similar admission policies and so an individual is at the risk of being excluded from all of them solely because of their race. Let's say if this suit against Harvard is successful, it will establish precedent and other institutions will be forced re-examine and amend their admission policies.

akhilcacharya 8y ago
>individual is at the risk of being excluded from all of them solely because of their race. For one thing, UC's and CalTech don't. And even if they were, my resounding response is.... so? Has society regressed to the point where if you don't go to an elite private institution (i.e. not your flagship public university) you will never achieve anything? If the true problem is a lack of social upward mobility, I feel that's a bigger problem than worrying about who gets to win the lottery. I say this as someone who got into the other school targeted by the group (UNC, I didn't go) while also being Asian and overall very mediocre.
- statguy 8y ago
  You are not allowed to drive an Audi and have to settle for a Toyota Corolla, just because of your race, even though you have the money. See what I am getting at...
  - akhilcacharya 8y ago
    I’m not allowed to ever drive an Audi no matter what I end up earning after the age of 18 (to continue the analogy) - so I have difficulty sympathizing with the people that have to drive Lexuses instead.

amarkov 8y ago

Being incidentally rejected might not be worth a lawsuit. But the plaintiffs claim, in part, that Harvard is specifically trying to discriminate against Asian applicants to keep Asians out of the student body. I think that's worth litigating over if it's true.

gowld 8y ago
Astute readers will recall _100 years ago_ when Harvard had an issue with a glut of over-performing Jewish students, and had debates that presaged today's debates about discrimination and diversity. The old debate may even be more illuminating than today's debate, since back then many of the racists were shamelessly clear-spoken about their race-based hatred. https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/expose/book/cloak-meritocracy-harvard%E2%80%99s-%E2%80%9Cnew-plan%E2%80%9D-admissions-and-%E2%80%9Cjewish-problem https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/expose/book/cloak-meritocrac...
- mc32 8y ago
  This kind of thing also occurred in the USSR because the native Russians were underperforming, so many elite institutions had implicit quotas such that one might have answers struck down in qualifying exams for being “too right”. It’s a hard political problem (both the discriminated against and the ones benefitting from the quota have a valid argument). Obvs an unbiased solution would be to admit the best, regardless, but for social reasons, it may not be optimal.
- Torgo 8y ago
  I am certain that, unlike 100 years ago, the fear isn't that Asians are crowding out white males; but that they are crowding out other minority groups. That is an entirely different motivation than anti-Semitism.
akhilcacharya 8y ago
>that Harvard is specifically trying to discriminate against Asian applicants to keep Asians out of the student body. If this was truly the intention they are doing a very poor job of it. Class of 2021 is 22.2% Asian-American according to their website.

gowld 8y ago

> What did they lose They lost access to a world-class education, professional network, and maybe >$1million in lifetime income premium over their alternate life path.

akhilcacharya 8y ago
Are you saying I'm permanently worse off for going to a state school? That's a totally legitimate viewpoint that I could be sympathetic to. But I also keep hearing that your undergrad degree doesn't matter - often by the same people that complain about AA after I mention I go to a state school. Now which is it?