4 ms·

I think a better question is what happens when we go to a paperless society? Because it's coming, and search warrants will be useless in such a society. Were t

I think a better question is what happens when we go to a paperless society? Because it's coming, and search warrants will be useless in such a society. Were this true, crimes would have been practically unsolvable before about the mid 1990s. Back then nobody carried pocket computers/communicators (encrypted or otherwise) and criminals also largely failed to make paper records of their crimes. You can't smuggle guns via SMS. You can't vandalize shop windows over the Internet. You can't kill people with a digital photograph. Most crimes, and especially the violent crimes that scare people the most, require physical actions that leave physical traces. The major exception would seem to be certain white collar crimes: insider trading, trade secret theft, perhaps tax evasion and other financial shenanigans. That's where I can see secure electronic devices making law enforcement significantly harder. But when LEOs speak against encryption in public they usually seem to invoke killers and kidnappers, as if victims' bodies were now regularly hidden inside encrypted iPhones instead of car trunks and shallow graves. Maybe LEOs believe their own rhetoric or maybe they just realize that "think of the victims of inside trading!" isn't the sort of terrifying scenario that will get the public on their side.

robocat 8y ago
> You can't vandalize shop windows over the Internet. You can't massacre people at a concert [snip]. You can't smuggle weapons over a border [snip]. I could commit these crimes over the internet by using others to perform them. So the people you catch are not the prime cause of the crimes. This was not feasible before the internet, and digital monitoring would be the only way to catch me.
- philipkglass 8y ago
  Even in the 20th century, heads of organized crime and terrorist groups generally weren't the ones actually smashing the windows of businesses that didn't pay protection money or blowing themselves up in crowded markets. If lower level criminals were guided by phone call, then law enforcement could get call records after the fact but not the actual contents of the past calls. If all communication was face-to-face, they wouldn't get even that. It seems about the same to me today. Phone service providers still have call records. PGP encryption on email bodies doesn't keep recipients secret. Apple can supply analogous iMessage metadata in response to a warrant. Perhaps law enforcement is angry at the passing of a brief golden age where most Americans carried a cell phone and that phone's security was almost always terrible. I'd put that era roughly between 2000, when American cell phone ownership rates rose past 50%, and 2009, when Apple introduced iOS full disk encryption and began regularly improving other data-at-rest protections.
  - bb88 8y ago
    I don't mean to be a jerk here by constantly raising counter examples because I think you have some good points. But apps like Signal prevent all that data from being collected. It just stays on the phone, locked by the secure enclave. > Perhaps law enforcement is angry... I wonder if what they're truly feeling is worried. Would that change the way you thought about them? I get that whole thing with "COINTELPRO", and Watergate where there were abuses. But assuming everyone is of the honest type here, wouldn't you want them to have more tools?
    - sosborn 8y ago
      It’s not about honesty here, it’s about honesty in law enforcement/government.
    - philipkglass 8y ago
      I wonder if what they're truly feeling is worried. Would that change the way you thought about them? I want to see the evidence that forms the basis for their worry, if they're feeling worried. Sincere feeling is better than pretending, but sincere feeling isn't enough. The most compelling evidence would show: - A statistically significant decline in solving violent crimes or serious property crimes now over the 1990s. - A statistically significant increase in solving these serious crimes among police departments with access to phone-unlocking (e.g. GrayKey devices) vs. otherwise-comparable police departments without access to such devices. If nothing regarding smartphones shows a statistically significant correlation to serious crime solution rate, then everyone will just go with their gut feelings. The gut feeling of police is, apparently, that they need to be able to look at the contents of phones. My gut feeling is that they don't. It's an impasse. If serious crimes are solved at a higher rate in departments with phone-unlocking capabilities, but the rate in the departments without unlocking tech is still no worse than in the 1990s, I still would resist weakening phone protections. It would make me think that maybe things have become harder since 2008, when phones were widespread and insecure, but that secure phones aren't a notable hazard to public safety. If it turns out that departments with phone-unlocking tech are doing significantly better than departments without it, and that departments without it are now solving crimes of violence and serious property crimes at a lower rate than in the late 20th century, I'd have to have a long, hard think about my personal stance on this issue. There would still be gnarly technical issues even if I decided that less secure phones were a net benefit to society. But I have changed my stance on security issues before. For example, I changed my mind about video surveillance of public streets. I find it more reassuring than dystopian. I'm more worried about hit-and-run drivers than about the cameras being used by a future dictatorship against the resistance. I've yet to be convinced that monitoring should extend to private spaces like my domicile or phone.
CossieRay 8y ago
I am amazed that you completely throw out the window the wisdom in preventive measures and simply wait for the crimes to physically happen then respond to them. It's a no-brainer that most of the extreme and mass violent crimes have been facilitated and coordinated digitally.
- philipkglass 8y ago
  Even if Apple could unlock iPhone storage given the phone and a valid warrant, law enforcement would still need to get the warrant and take the phone from the owner. Unlocking individual devices is not broadly useful as a preventive measure; it's something that could be done only after you have probable cause and don't mind alerting the target that law enforcement is interested in him.
- JetSpiegel 8y ago
  There were no iPhones in 2001 and 9/11 still happened. All the coordination was done by unsecure communications and face to face. Having access to more worthless data only makes it harder to find the information amongst the sea of data.
sjy 8y ago
> Back then nobody carried pocket computers/communicators (encrypted or otherwise) and criminals also largely failed to make paper records of their crimes. But they did use fixed-line telephones and talk in person. These communications can be monitored with a warrant for the use of a telephone intercept or listening device.
bb88 8y ago
> Most crimes, and especially the violent crimes that scare people the most, require physical actions that leave physical traces. To borrow a page from your argument book, if physical evidence alone were enough, we wouldn't have so many unsolved homicides. Look at the KC unsolved murder list for 2017: http://kcmo.gov/police/homicide-3/2017-unsolved-homicides/#.WmuEuVKZM6d http://kcmo.gov/police/homicide-3/2017-unsolved-homicides/#.... > You can't smuggle guns via SMS. Technically, you can send the plans for a plastic gun over the internet now, which just needs to be printed on the other side. You can also send a virus, if the other side has a gene sequencer. > You can't vandalize shop windows over the Internet. You can vandalize digital signage over the internet. As well a steal credit cards from the store's credit card readers. > You can't kill people with a digital photograph. Well... technically it's animated gif. But yeah you can. http://fortune.com/2017/03/22/twitter-epilepsy-gif/ http://fortune.com/2017/03/22/twitter-epilepsy-gif/ > Maybe LEOs believe their own rhetoric or maybe they just realize that "think of the victims of inside trading!" isn't the sort of terrifying scenario that will get the public on their side. Honestly, I think law enforcement believes that they need more tools. I don't think they want unsolved murders any more than the citizens do. So telling law enforcement officers, "you can pry open my iPhone from my cold dead hands" tends to ring hollow, especially if they really are of the honest kind and really do want to put criminals away as well as respecting your privacy.
- philipkglass 8y ago
  Is the murder clearance rate worse than it was in the late 20th century? Also worse than before iOS implemented full disk encryption? Your hyperbolic original claim was that search warrants will be useless in a paperless society. Had you made a mild and reasonable claim like "the contents of a phone, if available in unencrypted form, can help to solve crimes" I wouldn't have bothered to reply. As for the rest, I can't tell if you are just trying to demonstrate that you can think creatively, or if you actually think that iOS disk encryption is an important element of a scheme to get away with murdering someone with a pathogenic virus recreated from sequence data. (Or to get away with 3D printing guns under illegal circumstances, or deliberately inducing an epileptic fit.)
  - 8y ago

robocat 8y ago

> You can't vandalize shop windows over the Internet. You can't massacre people at a concert [snip]. You can't smuggle weapons over a border [snip]. I could commit these crimes over the internet by using others to perform them. So the people you catch are not the prime cause of the crimes. This was not feasible before the internet, and digital monitoring would be the only way to catch me.

philipkglass 8y ago
Even in the 20th century, heads of organized crime and terrorist groups generally weren't the ones actually smashing the windows of businesses that didn't pay protection money or blowing themselves up in crowded markets. If lower level criminals were guided by phone call, then law enforcement could get call records after the fact but not the actual contents of the past calls. If all communication was face-to-face, they wouldn't get even that. It seems about the same to me today. Phone service providers still have call records. PGP encryption on email bodies doesn't keep recipients secret. Apple can supply analogous iMessage metadata in response to a warrant. Perhaps law enforcement is angry at the passing of a brief golden age where most Americans carried a cell phone and that phone's security was almost always terrible. I'd put that era roughly between 2000, when American cell phone ownership rates rose past 50%, and 2009, when Apple introduced iOS full disk encryption and began regularly improving other data-at-rest protections.
- bb88 8y ago
  I don't mean to be a jerk here by constantly raising counter examples because I think you have some good points. But apps like Signal prevent all that data from being collected. It just stays on the phone, locked by the secure enclave. > Perhaps law enforcement is angry... I wonder if what they're truly feeling is worried. Would that change the way you thought about them? I get that whole thing with "COINTELPRO", and Watergate where there were abuses. But assuming everyone is of the honest type here, wouldn't you want them to have more tools?
  - sosborn 8y ago
    It’s not about honesty here, it’s about honesty in law enforcement/government.
  - philipkglass 8y ago
    I wonder if what they're truly feeling is worried. Would that change the way you thought about them? I want to see the evidence that forms the basis for their worry, if they're feeling worried. Sincere feeling is better than pretending, but sincere feeling isn't enough. The most compelling evidence would show: - A statistically significant decline in solving violent crimes or serious property crimes now over the 1990s. - A statistically significant increase in solving these serious crimes among police departments with access to phone-unlocking (e.g. GrayKey devices) vs. otherwise-comparable police departments without access to such devices. If nothing regarding smartphones shows a statistically significant correlation to serious crime solution rate, then everyone will just go with their gut feelings. The gut feeling of police is, apparently, that they need to be able to look at the contents of phones. My gut feeling is that they don't. It's an impasse. If serious crimes are solved at a higher rate in departments with phone-unlocking capabilities, but the rate in the departments without unlocking tech is still no worse than in the 1990s, I still would resist weakening phone protections. It would make me think that maybe things have become harder since 2008, when phones were widespread and insecure, but that secure phones aren't a notable hazard to public safety. If it turns out that departments with phone-unlocking tech are doing significantly better than departments without it, and that departments without it are now solving crimes of violence and serious property crimes at a lower rate than in the late 20th century, I'd have to have a long, hard think about my personal stance on this issue. There would still be gnarly technical issues even if I decided that less secure phones were a net benefit to society. But I have changed my stance on security issues before. For example, I changed my mind about video surveillance of public streets. I find it more reassuring than dystopian. I'm more worried about hit-and-run drivers than about the cameras being used by a future dictatorship against the resistance. I've yet to be convinced that monitoring should extend to private spaces like my domicile or phone.

CossieRay 8y ago

I am amazed that you completely throw out the window the wisdom in preventive measures and simply wait for the crimes to physically happen then respond to them. It's a no-brainer that most of the extreme and mass violent crimes have been facilitated and coordinated digitally.

philipkglass 8y ago
Even if Apple could unlock iPhone storage given the phone and a valid warrant, law enforcement would still need to get the warrant and take the phone from the owner. Unlocking individual devices is not broadly useful as a preventive measure; it's something that could be done only after you have probable cause and don't mind alerting the target that law enforcement is interested in him.
JetSpiegel 8y ago
There were no iPhones in 2001 and 9/11 still happened. All the coordination was done by unsecure communications and face to face. Having access to more worthless data only makes it harder to find the information amongst the sea of data.

sjy 8y ago

> Back then nobody carried pocket computers/communicators (encrypted or otherwise) and criminals also largely failed to make paper records of their crimes. But they did use fixed-line telephones and talk in person. These communications can be monitored with a warrant for the use of a telephone intercept or listening device.

bb88 8y ago

> Most crimes, and especially the violent crimes that scare people the most, require physical actions that leave physical traces. To borrow a page from your argument book, if physical evidence alone were enough, we wouldn't have so many unsolved homicides. Look at the KC unsolved murder list for 2017: http://kcmo.gov/police/homicide-3/2017-unsolved-homicides/#.WmuEuVKZM6d http://kcmo.gov/police/homicide-3/2017-unsolved-homicides/#.... > You can't smuggle guns via SMS. Technically, you can send the plans for a plastic gun over the internet now, which just needs to be printed on the other side. You can also send a virus, if the other side has a gene sequencer. > You can't vandalize shop windows over the Internet. You can vandalize digital signage over the internet. As well a steal credit cards from the store's credit card readers. > You can't kill people with a digital photograph. Well... technically it's animated gif. But yeah you can. http://fortune.com/2017/03/22/twitter-epilepsy-gif/ http://fortune.com/2017/03/22/twitter-epilepsy-gif/ > Maybe LEOs believe their own rhetoric or maybe they just realize that "think of the victims of inside trading!" isn't the sort of terrifying scenario that will get the public on their side. Honestly, I think law enforcement believes that they need more tools. I don't think they want unsolved murders any more than the citizens do. So telling law enforcement officers, "you can pry open my iPhone from my cold dead hands" tends to ring hollow, especially if they really are of the honest kind and really do want to put criminals away as well as respecting your privacy.

philipkglass 8y ago
Is the murder clearance rate worse than it was in the late 20th century? Also worse than before iOS implemented full disk encryption? Your hyperbolic original claim was that search warrants will be useless in a paperless society. Had you made a mild and reasonable claim like "the contents of a phone, if available in unencrypted form, can help to solve crimes" I wouldn't have bothered to reply. As for the rest, I can't tell if you are just trying to demonstrate that you can think creatively, or if you actually think that iOS disk encryption is an important element of a scheme to get away with murdering someone with a pathogenic virus recreated from sequence data. (Or to get away with 3D printing guns under illegal circumstances, or deliberately inducing an epileptic fit.)
- 8y ago