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The problem is, how do you build a back door that can only be used by people with valid (and just) warrants? You really can’t go down your line of argument wit
by jmull 8y ago
The problem is, how do you build a back door that can only be used by people with valid (and just) warrants?
You really can’t go down your line of argument without answering thar
- Veedrac 8y agoYou centralize ownership, the same way it has been done since the dawn of the internet. Even Intel can securely update your microcode.
- ska 8y agoExcept, since the dawn of the internet, this has never really worked without issues.
- Veedrac 8y agoI'm willing to bet that Apple can handle a single secure key in low-bandwidth interactions with law enforcement. This is not rocket science; it's not shared, it's not exposed to the web, it's not interacting with complex components. It's just a key.
- ska 8y agoIf only it were that simple, and Apple were the only ones to trust. History shows us that even the best intentioned key sharing is vulnerable.
- CydeWeys 8y agoThe technical aspects aren't the problem. The political and social aspects are. What does Apple do if they have this capability and China puts pressure on them to unencrypt some information on Chinese "dissidents"? China has incredible leverage over Apple, seeing as how all their devices are built there. Would Apple dare resist these requests from Chinese national law enforcement agencies? Better to not have this ability at all, and thus never be put into this precarious situation.
- wallace_f 8y agoInteresting that you looked to China foran example of a bad outcome. Ordinary police here in the states already misuse the privileged access they've been given, such as to supposedly private personal details to stalk romantic interests, personal enemies, business competitors, etc.[1] 1-https://apnews.com/699236946e3140659fff8a2362e16f43/ap-across-us-police-officers-abuse-confidential-databases https://apnews.com/699236946e3140659fff8a2362e16f43/ap-acros...
- Veedrac 8y ago> The technical aspects aren't the problem. The political and social aspects are. With this I agree completely.
- rsyntax 8y agoJust to add. Looking at the current political state surrounding the Russian collusion investigation. It's not a stretch that Trump would not use this against his political enemies or "fake new media". And look at what his supporters have done with FBI agents that had an affair with private text messages. Trump isn't the first of his kind nor will s/he be the last.
- ataturk 8y agoThe truth is, these companies don't care about Chinese dissidents. Real people fighting for real freedom deserve our support and respect, but Google especially has demonstrated their disdain for anyone who stands up against the Chinese government, and I don't figure Apple is any better. We need to demand our rights and demand that people around the world are brought up to our level because the alternative is us ending up at their level.
- lern_too_spel 8y ago> Better to not have this ability at all, and thus never be put into this precarious situation. Apple has this ability now, by installing an OS that allows bruteforcing the pin.
- 8y ago
- natch 8y agoWhy would they ever want to? Imagine the conversation if Veedrac was running the show at Apple. Saudi Police: "We need the key to this user's phone because they are suspected of having a video of their own gay sex and we want to prove it and if they are guilty of gay sex, we will give the user 60 lashes and then execute them and their partner by chopping off their heads with a sword." Veedrac: "Oh, OK, yes here you go, here is a single secure key on a one time basis so you can get the user's video and kill them." Do you really think this is a great scenario, that Apple wants to actively enable by spending money and effort on their designs to make it happen?
- Veedrac 8y agoWell I don't think I've ever been caricatured as homophobic before, that's one for the books.
- natch 8y agoThe comment wasn’t saying that you are homophobic. Just that you were being foolishly naive in advocating a system that would enable evil regimes including, for example, homophobic ones, to more effectively practice some of their most egregious human rights violating behaviors.
- Veedrac 8y agoAnd did you actually think about how such a risk might be handled, instead of (as I suspect you did) immediately jumping to strawman and slander the other side? It took me roughly 30 seconds to think of an approach that prevents overreach from foreign powers, I strongly suspect Apple can afford spending 5 minutes.
- natch 8y agoForeign powers aren’t the only problem. Leaked keys, domestic powers, small town corrupt sheriffs, corrupt US Presidents, are also problems. You think you have managed in 30 seconds to overturn the thinking of the entire credible security community. Let’s hear your approach then. Don’t be coy.
- bunderbunder 8y agoYep, and private keys are never compromised. Aside from the many, many known cases where they are: http://legacydirs.umiacs.umd.edu/~tdumitra/papers/CCS-2017.pdf http://legacydirs.umiacs.umd.edu/~tdumitra/papers/CCS-2017.p...
- Veedrac 8y agoAs best as I can tell, if you don't trust OS or microcode updates, you can't trust your phone at all unless you airgap it or somesuch.
- wholinator2 8y agoVery true. Everyone should know their TNO, Trust No One. As far as I can see it's the only way to really operate in the world of computer security that we live in.
- delfinom 8y agoThe problem is the only ones you can really trust in this case are Apple, just like only Intel has the keys for microcode. Give out software to every police department instead and there'll be a hack out in the public the same week.
- threeseed 8y agoExcept that countries like Russia, China et al can demand that Apple hand over those codes. Much better that Apple is not in the business of being the gatekeeper for hundreds of millions of users.
- tzs 8y ago> The problem is, how do you build a back door that can only be used by people with valid (and just) warrants? That's an interesting technical problem. A lot of people dismiss it as impossible out of hand, but they are underestimating what you can do with modern cryptography. You make it a distributed back door that requires several independent third parties to cooperate to use it. You choose the third parties so that no particular warrant seeker will be able to get enough power or influence over enough of the third parties to force them to enable the back door unless they think the use is valid and just. (You can actually design it so that the warrant seeker does not know who the third parties are). Some aspects of this may be too complicated to be practical, but it is not impossible.
- zelon88 8y agoKnowing how our government works they would just get tired of leaving each other voicemails and put their private keys on a network share or something.
- olliej 8y agoNo, having worked on crypto I feel confident saying that the smart people, especially those who do understand crypto, know, and state, that it cannot be done. All solution fundamentally boil down to someone has the keys required to decrypt all your content. This is ignoring the other technical costs (now your service has to record all ephemeral keys as well). It doesn’t matter /who/ has that decryption key, the requirement is that access to the key is guarded only by policy. You also resort to “with a warrant” but a NSL is effectively a warrant, and I’m fairly sure the DPRC has “warrants”. Who gets to request those keys? The position of the us government is that they have the right to access data from people in other countries, so can they provide a warrant to access that data? Can Germany ask for the data for someone in the US? What if someone travelled through another country - can that country now access those keys? Note these all questions regarding /legitimate/ access, I’m completely ignoring police officers looking up people they stopped and stealing nudes, of people stealing the information and using that information to steal money, stalking, etc I am sick and tired of people who say “modern cryptography is amazing, so it must be able to fulfill my unicorn dreams”. Either stop claiming nonsense or provide a prove that it is possible by designing a system that does what you say must be possible.
- ataturk 8y agoYou can't. And intelligence agencies and police are corrupt the world over--in the US and everywhere else. So the only defense regular people have against any of it is true, strong encryption.
- lern_too_spel 8y agoThe same way a storage facility can give keys for specific units to people who present valid warrants to search those units.
- sbarker 8y agohttps://techcrunch.com/2016/07/27/security-experts-have-cloned-all-seven-tsa-master-keys/ https://techcrunch.com/2016/07/27/security-experts-have-clon...