4 ms·

Look at the list of names on this paper. We better fix our immigration system for high skill individuals.

by ggg9990 8y ago

jjoonathan 8y ago
Devil's advocate: "let's fund PhDs with respectable salaries instead of green cards."
- hello_1234 8y ago
  We are talking about MIT. Their acceptance rate is around 6%. I am sure they get plenty of applications from the smartest American undergrads. Assuming that they choose the best and the brightest, it makes sense that they would have students from all over the world. Americans don't have a monopoly on intelligence.
  - throwawayjava 8y ago
    You are both correct. Many Americans choose not to go into academia (at every level) because the other options are much more lucrative. It is true that many of America's best minds do not pursue a PhD in large part because of the paltry stipend. It is also absolutely true that the one top CS PhD program I know of does not compromise in admissions and does not suffer from a lack of highly qualified applicants. > Americans don't have a monopoly on intelligence. I think it's possible to agree with this point while still believing that American CS Ph.D. programs -- especially those outside the top N -- are not as attractive to domestic applicants as they probably should be.
  - RIMR 8y ago
    >Americans don't have a monopoly on intelligence. Sadly, we seem to be quite deficient in that department compared to other first world countries...
- kolpa 8y ago
  How does that solve the problem of attracting talent?
  - jjoonathan 8y ago
    It solves the problem of attracting American talent, not talent in general. Immigrants get "paid" more than citizens to do a PhD in the U.S. because there's a green card "stapled" to each degree, which is of no value to citizens but of significant value to immigrants. I called the argument "Devil's Advocate" because it is more than a little thankless to complain about someone working hard to obtain a privilege you were born into. It still hurts to have your dream job undercut by someone else, though.
    - RIMR 8y ago
      >It still hurts to have your dream job undercut by someone else, though. What an absolutely atrocious way to think of your fellow man... If someone else is getting the job you want instead of you, they worked harder for it than you did. If you want your dream job, you need to be prepared to compete for it, regardless of what color skin the competition happens to have.
      - dragonwriter 8y ago
        > If someone else is getting the job you want instead of you, they worked harder for it than you did. No, that's not a valid generalization. They may have worked less hard and been more talented. They may have worked less hard, been less talented, but had the good fortune to have better social connections. They may have worked less hard, been less talented, but benefit from non-germane status-based discrimination. Or, well, lots of other possibilities.
      - jjoonathan 8y ago
        I declare support for a cause dramatically against my own interest but mention that it "still hurts" to do so (on account, you know, of it being against my interest) and you call my feeling an atrocity? It's not enough to merely do the right thing, I must also revel in the pain it causes me? That's sick, it's an atrocious way to think of your fellow man, and it's the very attitude that put Donald Trump in office. > If you want your dream job, you need to be prepared to compete... Your post history suggests you are an American. Unless you are an American PhD student, you are almost certainly benefiting immensely from much stronger protectionism at this very moment, so take your self-righteousness, and stuff it.
patrickyeon 8y ago
Why do you believe any of those names are not American?
- ggg9990 8y ago
  They're all American in some measure as they are all living in the US at MIT. But they are clearly immigrants or the descendants of immigrants.
  - patrickyeon 8y ago
    I mean... in 2016 1.2% of Americans were "American Indian", so outside of that small group everyone is "clearly immigrants or the descendants of immigrants". It's pretty bad form to look at names and assume that someone isn't an American.
  - RIMR 8y ago
    Look, I get the point you're trying to make, and I know you're not trying to be racist or xenophobic, but implying that having a foreign-sounding name make you less than entirely American is a really bad look. Literally everyone credited in this paper could have been born and raised in the USA with birthright citizenship. I know that, realistically, that's not the case, but jumping to assumptions about individuals based on how ethnic their names sound is a form for casual racism that has absolutely no place in academia. More importantly, if non-citizens are so much more likely to get admitted to MIT than citizens, it's not the immigration system we should be worried about. We should be worried about our education system that fails to produce highly-educated and motivated adults that qualify for admittance into MIT. I also need to call you out for even bringing "descendants of immigrants" into this conversation. The children of immigrants have a name in this country: American citizens. We ought not judge people for the national origins of their parents, we should judge them for their academic and professional merits.
    - matt_the_bass 8y ago
      Thank you for taking the time to write this.

Look at the list of names on this paper. We better fix our immigration system for high skill individuals.

jjoonathan 8y ago

Devil's advocate: "let's fund PhDs with respectable salaries instead of green cards."

hello_1234 8y ago
We are talking about MIT. Their acceptance rate is around 6%. I am sure they get plenty of applications from the smartest American undergrads. Assuming that they choose the best and the brightest, it makes sense that they would have students from all over the world. Americans don't have a monopoly on intelligence.
- throwawayjava 8y ago
  You are both correct. Many Americans choose not to go into academia (at every level) because the other options are much more lucrative. It is true that many of America's best minds do not pursue a PhD in large part because of the paltry stipend. It is also absolutely true that the one top CS PhD program I know of does not compromise in admissions and does not suffer from a lack of highly qualified applicants. > Americans don't have a monopoly on intelligence. I think it's possible to agree with this point while still believing that American CS Ph.D. programs -- especially those outside the top N -- are not as attractive to domestic applicants as they probably should be.
- RIMR 8y ago
  >Americans don't have a monopoly on intelligence. Sadly, we seem to be quite deficient in that department compared to other first world countries...
kolpa 8y ago
How does that solve the problem of attracting talent?
- jjoonathan 8y ago
  It solves the problem of attracting American talent, not talent in general. Immigrants get "paid" more than citizens to do a PhD in the U.S. because there's a green card "stapled" to each degree, which is of no value to citizens but of significant value to immigrants. I called the argument "Devil's Advocate" because it is more than a little thankless to complain about someone working hard to obtain a privilege you were born into. It still hurts to have your dream job undercut by someone else, though.
  - RIMR 8y ago
    >It still hurts to have your dream job undercut by someone else, though. What an absolutely atrocious way to think of your fellow man... If someone else is getting the job you want instead of you, they worked harder for it than you did. If you want your dream job, you need to be prepared to compete for it, regardless of what color skin the competition happens to have.
    - dragonwriter 8y ago
      > If someone else is getting the job you want instead of you, they worked harder for it than you did. No, that's not a valid generalization. They may have worked less hard and been more talented. They may have worked less hard, been less talented, but had the good fortune to have better social connections. They may have worked less hard, been less talented, but benefit from non-germane status-based discrimination. Or, well, lots of other possibilities.
    - jjoonathan 8y ago
      I declare support for a cause dramatically against my own interest but mention that it "still hurts" to do so (on account, you know, of it being against my interest) and you call my feeling an atrocity? It's not enough to merely do the right thing, I must also revel in the pain it causes me? That's sick, it's an atrocious way to think of your fellow man, and it's the very attitude that put Donald Trump in office. > If you want your dream job, you need to be prepared to compete... Your post history suggests you are an American. Unless you are an American PhD student, you are almost certainly benefiting immensely from much stronger protectionism at this very moment, so take your self-righteousness, and stuff it.

patrickyeon 8y ago

Why do you believe any of those names are not American?

ggg9990 8y ago
They're all American in some measure as they are all living in the US at MIT. But they are clearly immigrants or the descendants of immigrants.
- patrickyeon 8y ago
  I mean... in 2016 1.2% of Americans were "American Indian", so outside of that small group everyone is "clearly immigrants or the descendants of immigrants". It's pretty bad form to look at names and assume that someone isn't an American.
- RIMR 8y ago
  Look, I get the point you're trying to make, and I know you're not trying to be racist or xenophobic, but implying that having a foreign-sounding name make you less than entirely American is a really bad look. Literally everyone credited in this paper could have been born and raised in the USA with birthright citizenship. I know that, realistically, that's not the case, but jumping to assumptions about individuals based on how ethnic their names sound is a form for casual racism that has absolutely no place in academia. More importantly, if non-citizens are so much more likely to get admitted to MIT than citizens, it's not the immigration system we should be worried about. We should be worried about our education system that fails to produce highly-educated and motivated adults that qualify for admittance into MIT. I also need to call you out for even bringing "descendants of immigrants" into this conversation. The children of immigrants have a name in this country: American citizens. We ought not judge people for the national origins of their parents, we should judge them for their academic and professional merits.
  - matt_the_bass 8y ago
    Thank you for taking the time to write this.