5 ms·

This is welcome move by the new Home Secretary, but the thing that terrifies me the most is the end of free movement when we leave the EU. As the director of a

by reqres 8y ago

This is welcome move by the new Home Secretary, but the thing that terrifies me the most is the end of free movement when we leave the EU. As the director of a software development business, I have to contend with a very tight market for good developers. After brexit takes place, any EU citizen I wish to employ will have to go through the Tier 2 visa route. There are 3 major issues with this. 1. It's capped at 20k people per year. 2. We do not have the deep pockets and the legal/HR team to navigate the home office to procure such a visa 3. It does not provide sufficient guarantees for bringing and settling down a family On top of that, we also have to contend with many structural issues that makes the UK (London in particular) a less appealing place to attract talent: - High cost and low quality of living in London - Poor transport infrastructure (it's cheaper to eurostar London-Amsterdam than train London-Manchester) - UK politicians and media do not stand up for the benefits of immigration and is willing to allow blanket demonisation of immigrants to go unanswered - All the negative externalities associated with an overcrowded city (overcrowded public transport, knife crime, NOX pollution in excess of legally permissible levels)

easytiger 8y ago
> After brexit takes place, any EU citizen I wish to employ will have to go through the Tier 2 visa route. How do you know that?
- pjc50 8y ago
  Nobody knows for sure yet, and we might still get the EEA with free movement; but anti-immigration hostility was a big driver for the Brexit vote so some sections of the Tory party may not agree to this.
- jackweirdy 8y ago
  Politically, the Prime Minister is standing firmly behind the "End Freedom of Movement" crowd. There's been no discussion of any alternative immigration process besides the existing visa process. It's obviously not a certainty that that will be the case, but so far most signs point to it.
  - easytiger 8y ago
    > It's obviously not a certainty that that will be the case, but so far most signs point to it. Not my understanding. Care to place a wager?
    - jackweirdy 8y ago
      I’m not betting on anything now we’ve entered the math.random timeline. Out of interest what are you expecting to see?
- yardie 8y ago
  Because one of the primary goals for the Brexit campaign was restricting freedom of movement from the EU.
beojan 8y ago
> Poor transport infrastructure (it's cheaper to eurostar London-Amsterdam than train London-Manchester) I don't see how that's a problem? Perhaps if you were evaluating Manchester as a location, but not when evaluating London. Realistically, no one's going to commute from Manchester to London. If you have to meet people in Manchester, that's going to be an issue wherever you set up.
- reqres 8y ago
  That's fair, the London-Manchester issue is specific to our particular client base. However the absurd cost of low quality rail travel (often standing room only, less frequent trains following new time table, poor customer service) is real. Right now I'm paying £3.5k a year for an annual rail pass to take me into work (for instance). The alternative would be to move further into London and pay double in rent for the same accommodation / standard of living
- stevesimmons 8y ago
  UK rail pricing is insane, 3 to 7 times more than in the Netherlands, to make a comparison I know well. Totally unaffordable for spur-of-the-moment trips unless a company is paying. Here are two comparable length journeys. - London to Manchester (2h26): travel tomorrow: GBP148; travel in August: GBP64 - Amsterdam to Maastricht (2h25): travel tomorrow: EUR25 = GBP22; travel in August: EUR25 Dutch rail prices are simple and predictable. Essentially a fixed rate per km, with an optional 40% off for offpeak travel after 9:30am. The UK apparently has 55 million different fare combinations. Totally bewildering. Not to mention the condition of the trains and the reliability of the service are much worse. UK rail prices are so bad it is almost always cheaper to fly than go by train. Consequently, my partner and I take 10 European holidays by air for every UK holiday by train. That's a massive loss for the UK tourist industry.
  - beojan 8y ago
    That's what happens when you privatize the rail system. Though as I understand it, it's still subsidized just not to the same extent as in the Netherlands. Rail is just a very expensive mode of transport to operate.
snthd 8y ago
>All the negative externalities associated with an overcrowded city (overcrowded public transport, knife crime, NOX pollution in excess of legally permissible levels) Why attribute that to an overcrowded city rather than UK specific politics?
briandear 8y ago
You are in software development. So learn how to manage remote teams and all of those issues become irrelevant. You will have some new issues for sure, but higher quality remote talent is better than mediocre on site talent.
- walshemj 8y ago
  But finding high quality remote talent is had as if they where any good they would have left in most cases. I suspect you want to have your cake and eat it.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
switch007 8y ago
> I have to contend with a very tight market for good developers. What do you mean by tight market, and what makes EU citizens an attractive hire? When businesses discuss problems with finding good people, I find it somewhat incomplete if salaries aren't mentioned.
- walshemj 8y ago
  Former Warsaw pact member states have well trained young people with degrees and horrific employment levels - so employers in the UK can get cheaper staff.
  - CloudNetworking 8y ago
    It's not that they can get cheaper staff, it's that they can get reliable and talented staff. There's only so many talented British developers. Hiking salaries won't turn non-talented people into talented people.
    - blibble 8y ago
      > Hiking salaries won't turn non-talented people into talented people. the exact opposite is the basis of capitalism
      - CloudNetworking 8y ago
        If I negate everything in my sentence this is what I get: > Lowering salaries will turn talented people into non-talented people. Am I doing capitalism right? :o)
    - walshemj 8y ago
      I think you mean there are "only so many talented British / English developers" who will work for what you want to pay. Over time a shortage and higher wages will increase the supply - all those cute triplets with triple A levels that the papers like to picture jumping in the air on results day( a common uk trope) will go into engineering instead of the law, medicine or other higher paid and higher status jobs

by reqres 8y ago

easytiger 8y ago

> After brexit takes place, any EU citizen I wish to employ will have to go through the Tier 2 visa route. How do you know that?

pjc50 8y ago
Nobody knows for sure yet, and we might still get the EEA with free movement; but anti-immigration hostility was a big driver for the Brexit vote so some sections of the Tory party may not agree to this.
jackweirdy 8y ago
Politically, the Prime Minister is standing firmly behind the "End Freedom of Movement" crowd. There's been no discussion of any alternative immigration process besides the existing visa process. It's obviously not a certainty that that will be the case, but so far most signs point to it.
- easytiger 8y ago
  > It's obviously not a certainty that that will be the case, but so far most signs point to it. Not my understanding. Care to place a wager?
  - jackweirdy 8y ago
    I’m not betting on anything now we’ve entered the math.random timeline. Out of interest what are you expecting to see?
yardie 8y ago
Because one of the primary goals for the Brexit campaign was restricting freedom of movement from the EU.

beojan 8y ago

> Poor transport infrastructure (it's cheaper to eurostar London-Amsterdam than train London-Manchester) I don't see how that's a problem? Perhaps if you were evaluating Manchester as a location, but not when evaluating London. Realistically, no one's going to commute from Manchester to London. If you have to meet people in Manchester, that's going to be an issue wherever you set up.

reqres 8y ago
That's fair, the London-Manchester issue is specific to our particular client base. However the absurd cost of low quality rail travel (often standing room only, less frequent trains following new time table, poor customer service) is real. Right now I'm paying £3.5k a year for an annual rail pass to take me into work (for instance). The alternative would be to move further into London and pay double in rent for the same accommodation / standard of living
stevesimmons 8y ago
UK rail pricing is insane, 3 to 7 times more than in the Netherlands, to make a comparison I know well. Totally unaffordable for spur-of-the-moment trips unless a company is paying. Here are two comparable length journeys. - London to Manchester (2h26): travel tomorrow: GBP148; travel in August: GBP64 - Amsterdam to Maastricht (2h25): travel tomorrow: EUR25 = GBP22; travel in August: EUR25 Dutch rail prices are simple and predictable. Essentially a fixed rate per km, with an optional 40% off for offpeak travel after 9:30am. The UK apparently has 55 million different fare combinations. Totally bewildering. Not to mention the condition of the trains and the reliability of the service are much worse. UK rail prices are so bad it is almost always cheaper to fly than go by train. Consequently, my partner and I take 10 European holidays by air for every UK holiday by train. That's a massive loss for the UK tourist industry.
- beojan 8y ago
  That's what happens when you privatize the rail system. Though as I understand it, it's still subsidized just not to the same extent as in the Netherlands. Rail is just a very expensive mode of transport to operate.

snthd 8y ago

>All the negative externalities associated with an overcrowded city (overcrowded public transport, knife crime, NOX pollution in excess of legally permissible levels) Why attribute that to an overcrowded city rather than UK specific politics?

briandear 8y ago

You are in software development. So learn how to manage remote teams and all of those issues become irrelevant. You will have some new issues for sure, but higher quality remote talent is better than mediocre on site talent.

walshemj 8y ago
But finding high quality remote talent is had as if they where any good they would have left in most cases. I suspect you want to have your cake and eat it.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

switch007 8y ago

> I have to contend with a very tight market for good developers. What do you mean by tight market, and what makes EU citizens an attractive hire? When businesses discuss problems with finding good people, I find it somewhat incomplete if salaries aren't mentioned.

walshemj 8y ago
Former Warsaw pact member states have well trained young people with degrees and horrific employment levels - so employers in the UK can get cheaper staff.
- CloudNetworking 8y ago
  It's not that they can get cheaper staff, it's that they can get reliable and talented staff. There's only so many talented British developers. Hiking salaries won't turn non-talented people into talented people.
  - blibble 8y ago
    > Hiking salaries won't turn non-talented people into talented people. the exact opposite is the basis of capitalism
    - CloudNetworking 8y ago
      If I negate everything in my sentence this is what I get: > Lowering salaries will turn talented people into non-talented people. Am I doing capitalism right? :o)
  - walshemj 8y ago
    I think you mean there are "only so many talented British / English developers" who will work for what you want to pay. Over time a shortage and higher wages will increase the supply - all those cute triplets with triple A levels that the papers like to picture jumping in the air on results day( a common uk trope) will go into engineering instead of the law, medicine or other higher paid and higher status jobs