5 ms·

I'm sure I'll be downvoted into oblivion for making the observation but surely this isn't surprising given that people with lower IQs tend to have more babies a

by yasp 8y ago

I'm sure I'll be downvoted into oblivion for making the observation but surely this isn't surprising given that people with lower IQs tend to have more babies and have babies earlier in life than do people with higher IQs. [0] [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fertility_and_intelligence https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fertility_and_intelligence

vilhelm_s 8y ago
The main point of the paper being reported on here (http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2018/06/05/1718793115 http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2018/06/05/1718793115) is that this is not the explanation for the Norwegian IQ trends.
bthrm 8y ago
That’s what the intro to the movie Idiocracy says :P
- alpeb 8y ago
  Please don't refer to those as "movies". They're really documentaries, just like Terminator et al.
  - drharby 8y ago
    Humor is frowned upon as a vehicle for dialogue it seems
Retric 8y ago
That's a common myth. Higher than average IQ men have significantly more kids it's less significant and possibly negative for women. "More rigorous studies carried out on Americans alive after the Second World War returned different results suggesting a slight positive correlation with respect to intelligence." Critically these children are often had latter in life making studies based on younger age cohorts give different results. Higher education also has a negative impact.
- wycs 8y ago
  Dysgenics is, unfortunately, starting to look undeniable:http://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/early/2017/01/10/1612113114.full.pdf http://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/early/2017/01/10/1612113114... IQ slightly increases male reproduction but massively reduces female reproduction. This may select for dimorphism in the long term, which does not seem like a good outcome. We will have the means to select for high IQ with embryo selection or iterated embryo selection. Hopefully we are not so in denial about what we are losing that we fail to allow this technology to be used. I know China and Korea will not shun it.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - jabgrabdthrow 8y ago
    But Nazis ! We have to go to war with China
    - sctb 8y ago
      Please stop posting unsubstantive comments or we'll ban the account. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- bakhy 8y ago
  > ...possibly negative for women. I hope I won't be downvoted crazy for this, but wasn't feminism offered as an answer to this? Better educated women have a bit more trouble having babies and keeping their career, since lots of men find it offputting to be dependent on their wives, due to traditional gender roles. Some developed countries have experienced normalization of fertility rates, and I've heard that more gender equality was a possible good explanation for this - more women can have both the baby and the career... This would also fit with the phenomenon you describe, of educated men having more kids, but educated women having less.
  - soundwave106 8y ago
drsopp 8y ago
Perhaps regression toward the mean counteracts this?
cJ0th 8y ago
preface: the following comment is about environmental factors, not race! Also, Norway has been a popular country for migrants for decades. If you come from a less developed country where, for instance, the quality of food and health care (factors relevant to IQ) aren't as good as in Norway then this surely influenced the IQ of your predecessors and hence you. If the share of such migrants is big enough to influence the average (I don't know!) then this could be an explanation. https://www.ssb.no/en/befolkning/statistikker/innvutv/aar/_image/110874.png?_encoded=2f66666666666678302f35382f29303136286874646977656c616373&_ts=13e5ab1ae10 https://www.ssb.no/en/befolkning/statistikker/innvutv/aar/_i...
- jeffreyrogers 8y ago
  I think they control for this by saying inter-family variation explains almost the entire effect. So that suggests the problem is something with the Norwegian environment (and possibly the rest of the developed world) rather than the relatively poor environment that many immigrants and refugees come from.
- pokemongoaway 8y ago
  Correct. Was pretty obvious during my stays in Scandinavia that the people trying to sell me drugs and fighting in the train stations were not locals. Not that those actions in any way would be a correlate of IQ /PC logic.
- IkmoIkmo 8y ago
  > Using administrative register data and cognitive ability scores from military conscription data covering three decades of Norwegian birth cohorts (1962–1991) I can't access the full study, somehow it's not published yet for me. But it doesn't appear like migration played a role.
partycoder 8y ago
First of all, IQ always changes. 100 points of IQ in 2018 is not the same as 100 points of IQ in 1918. This is because IQ 100 is defined as the mean score. Many things affect IQ, one of them being nutrition. If a couple with median income has 10 kids, compared to 2 kids, their ability to provide proper nutrition to those 10 kids, or the time to ensure those 10 kids are properly fed will not be as good. Fertility rates have to do with many things. Historically, fertility rates were higher because infant mortality rates were higher: fewer live births, and lower survival rate through childhood. Also, culture and religion. Some religions are against contraception of any kind and promote abstinence as the main form of birth control. Birth control requires certain form of exposure to sex education. If you had no access to education, or if your education was provided by a religious organization, it is likely you will have no proper sex ed and your risk is higher.
alendit 8y ago
"we show that the observed Flynn effect, its turning point, and subsequent decline can all be fully recovered from within-family variation. The analysis controls for all factors shared by siblings and finds no evidence for prominent causal hypotheses of the decline implicating genes and environmental factors that vary between, but not within, families." "Stupid people have more kids" is exactly such a prominent causal hypothesis.

by yasp 8y ago

vilhelm_s 8y ago

The main point of the paper being reported on here (http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2018/06/05/1718793115 http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2018/06/05/1718793115) is that this is not the explanation for the Norwegian IQ trends.

bthrm 8y ago

That’s what the intro to the movie Idiocracy says :P

alpeb 8y ago
Please don't refer to those as "movies". They're really documentaries, just like Terminator et al.
- drharby 8y ago
  Humor is frowned upon as a vehicle for dialogue it seems

Retric 8y ago

That's a common myth. Higher than average IQ men have significantly more kids it's less significant and possibly negative for women. "More rigorous studies carried out on Americans alive after the Second World War returned different results suggesting a slight positive correlation with respect to intelligence." Critically these children are often had latter in life making studies based on younger age cohorts give different results. Higher education also has a negative impact.

wycs 8y ago
Dysgenics is, unfortunately, starting to look undeniable:http://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/early/2017/01/10/1612113114.full.pdf http://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/early/2017/01/10/1612113114... IQ slightly increases male reproduction but massively reduces female reproduction. This may select for dimorphism in the long term, which does not seem like a good outcome. We will have the means to select for high IQ with embryo selection or iterated embryo selection. Hopefully we are not so in denial about what we are losing that we fail to allow this technology to be used. I know China and Korea will not shun it.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- jabgrabdthrow 8y ago
  But Nazis ! We have to go to war with China
  - sctb 8y ago
    Please stop posting unsubstantive comments or we'll ban the account. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
bakhy 8y ago
> ...possibly negative for women. I hope I won't be downvoted crazy for this, but wasn't feminism offered as an answer to this? Better educated women have a bit more trouble having babies and keeping their career, since lots of men find it offputting to be dependent on their wives, due to traditional gender roles. Some developed countries have experienced normalization of fertility rates, and I've heard that more gender equality was a possible good explanation for this - more women can have both the baby and the career... This would also fit with the phenomenon you describe, of educated men having more kids, but educated women having less.
- soundwave106 8y ago

drsopp 8y ago

Perhaps regression toward the mean counteracts this?

cJ0th 8y ago

preface: the following comment is about environmental factors, not race! Also, Norway has been a popular country for migrants for decades. If you come from a less developed country where, for instance, the quality of food and health care (factors relevant to IQ) aren't as good as in Norway then this surely influenced the IQ of your predecessors and hence you. If the share of such migrants is big enough to influence the average (I don't know!) then this could be an explanation. https://www.ssb.no/en/befolkning/statistikker/innvutv/aar/_image/110874.png?_encoded=2f66666666666678302f35382f29303136286874646977656c616373&_ts=13e5ab1ae10 https://www.ssb.no/en/befolkning/statistikker/innvutv/aar/_i...

jeffreyrogers 8y ago
I think they control for this by saying inter-family variation explains almost the entire effect. So that suggests the problem is something with the Norwegian environment (and possibly the rest of the developed world) rather than the relatively poor environment that many immigrants and refugees come from.
pokemongoaway 8y ago
Correct. Was pretty obvious during my stays in Scandinavia that the people trying to sell me drugs and fighting in the train stations were not locals. Not that those actions in any way would be a correlate of IQ /PC logic.
IkmoIkmo 8y ago
> Using administrative register data and cognitive ability scores from military conscription data covering three decades of Norwegian birth cohorts (1962–1991) I can't access the full study, somehow it's not published yet for me. But it doesn't appear like migration played a role.

partycoder 8y ago

First of all, IQ always changes. 100 points of IQ in 2018 is not the same as 100 points of IQ in 1918. This is because IQ 100 is defined as the mean score. Many things affect IQ, one of them being nutrition. If a couple with median income has 10 kids, compared to 2 kids, their ability to provide proper nutrition to those 10 kids, or the time to ensure those 10 kids are properly fed will not be as good. Fertility rates have to do with many things. Historically, fertility rates were higher because infant mortality rates were higher: fewer live births, and lower survival rate through childhood. Also, culture and religion. Some religions are against contraception of any kind and promote abstinence as the main form of birth control. Birth control requires certain form of exposure to sex education. If you had no access to education, or if your education was provided by a religious organization, it is likely you will have no proper sex ed and your risk is higher.

alendit 8y ago

"we show that the observed Flynn effect, its turning point, and subsequent decline can all be fully recovered from within-family variation. The analysis controls for all factors shared by siblings and finds no evidence for prominent causal hypotheses of the decline implicating genes and environmental factors that vary between, but not within, families." "Stupid people have more kids" is exactly such a prominent causal hypothesis.