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Yes, that's how unionization works in the U.S. However, you've said nothing about educational outcomes, which is what I'm concerned with. In addition, you're

Yes, that's how unionization works in the U.S. However, you've said nothing about educational outcomes, which is what I'm concerned with. In addition, you're a bit off on the facts. There actually are three states that expressly prohibit collective bargaining with teachers unions: North Carolina, Texas, and Virginia. In a lot of these right-to-work states, the unions have been able to get work rules and the like codified in state law as opposed to within collective bargaining. Again, the PDF I linked to has a lot off good data and cites, and yes, it does comes down pretty harshly on the unions. Look, I've been actively engaged on this subject for the last six years of my life. It's clear that I'll never convince you that simply eliminating public sector unions won't magically solve our education woes. But I can show you the facts that the circumstances that would allow for that to happen haven't happened.

yummyfajitas 16y ago
I'm not claiming right to work laws are a magic bullet - I'm only claiming that your original argument proves virtually nothing about whether or not unions are the problem. If, as you assert, unions can influence outcomes via state law and collective bargaining even in right to work states, then we would not expect right to work laws to have much effect. Thus, the fact that educational outcomes are similar provides no evidence about whether or not unions are the culprit. Your argument is simply incorrect.
gojomo 16y ago
So you're saying that in the states where the public teachers' unions haven't messed things up through collective bargaining, the generic public teachers' lobby has messed things up through legislation instead? That seems a rather fine and mostly moot point. If it's still public school teachers' interests and campaigning that torpedoes necessary reforms, then it doesn't matter if that's effected through a mandatory-membership union or collective bargaining or legislation. The same interests need to be confronted in any case, and I don't know anyone who's suggested that "simply eliminating public sector unions" would "magically solve our education woes". There's no magic bullet, just a bunch of necessary reforms. And teacher's unions in both right-to-work and mandatory-union states oppose most of the necessary steps.
- sachinag 16y ago
  I think that's a fair characterization of my point in your first three paragraphs. There's just not a history of being able to take on the unions and "win", regardless of the labor laws. So let's stop trying to fight the unions and characterize them as devil spawn since that isn't going to work. I'd rather focus on the areas where there aren't necessarily entrenched interests so we can focus on experimentation and trying to change the anti-education sentiment[1]. Schools like the KIPP Academies have exceptional outcomes over and over again. We need to find a way to get their techniques wider distribution. I believe that fighting a war of words with the teachers unions is both a waste of time and counterproductive from a policy/results perspective. Public sector unions just aren't going anywhere. Furthermore, we're going to have a shortage of teachers - estimated to be as high as a million teachers [2] - once the Boomer generation retires. Demeaning the remaining teachers (who are generally union-affiliated) strikes me as ridiculously counterproductive. The experiences in NYC and DC are proof that there are ways to make teachers more accountable, reward better teachers, remove crappier teachers, and generally change the culture in our schools without taking tactical nukes to the NEA and AFT. [1] Read Bissinger's Friday Night Lights for the best-written example of what I'm talking about. [2] http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/07/education/07teacher.html http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/07/education/07teacher.html

yummyfajitas 16y ago

I'm not claiming right to work laws are a magic bullet - I'm only claiming that your original argument proves virtually nothing about whether or not unions are the problem. If, as you assert, unions can influence outcomes via state law and collective bargaining even in right to work states, then we would not expect right to work laws to have much effect. Thus, the fact that educational outcomes are similar provides no evidence about whether or not unions are the culprit. Your argument is simply incorrect.

gojomo 16y ago

So you're saying that in the states where the public teachers' unions haven't messed things up through collective bargaining, the generic public teachers' lobby has messed things up through legislation instead? That seems a rather fine and mostly moot point. If it's still public school teachers' interests and campaigning that torpedoes necessary reforms, then it doesn't matter if that's effected through a mandatory-membership union or collective bargaining or legislation. The same interests need to be confronted in any case, and I don't know anyone who's suggested that "simply eliminating public sector unions" would "magically solve our education woes". There's no magic bullet, just a bunch of necessary reforms. And teacher's unions in both right-to-work and mandatory-union states oppose most of the necessary steps.

sachinag 16y ago
I think that's a fair characterization of my point in your first three paragraphs. There's just not a history of being able to take on the unions and "win", regardless of the labor laws. So let's stop trying to fight the unions and characterize them as devil spawn since that isn't going to work. I'd rather focus on the areas where there aren't necessarily entrenched interests so we can focus on experimentation and trying to change the anti-education sentiment[1]. Schools like the KIPP Academies have exceptional outcomes over and over again. We need to find a way to get their techniques wider distribution. I believe that fighting a war of words with the teachers unions is both a waste of time and counterproductive from a policy/results perspective. Public sector unions just aren't going anywhere. Furthermore, we're going to have a shortage of teachers - estimated to be as high as a million teachers [2] - once the Boomer generation retires. Demeaning the remaining teachers (who are generally union-affiliated) strikes me as ridiculously counterproductive. The experiences in NYC and DC are proof that there are ways to make teachers more accountable, reward better teachers, remove crappier teachers, and generally change the culture in our schools without taking tactical nukes to the NEA and AFT. [1] Read Bissinger's Friday Night Lights for the best-written example of what I'm talking about. [2] http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/07/education/07teacher.html http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/07/education/07teacher.html