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As much as I love zen koans, especially hacker koans, it's worth remembering that ESR doesn't really code and I don't know if he merits the 'authority' that som

As much as I love zen koans, especially hacker koans, it's worth remembering that ESR doesn't really code and I don't know if he merits the 'authority' that some people ascribe to him.

aaronbrethorst 16y ago
Those who can, do. Those who can't, dress up in Jedi costumes and shout out malapropisms[1]. [1] http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-revenge.html http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-revenge.html
- alnayyir 16y ago
  Frankly, I stayed up so late last night/this morning that I had nightmares when I did finally pass out because I was hacking on a compiler. ESR can't sling enough code to contribute to a random OSS project without people getting exasperated, of late. Don't spout platitudes at people you don't know.
  - mahmud 16y ago
    I think aaron is in agreement with you :-)
    - alnayyir 16y ago
      I'm terrible at gauging that.
      - aaronbrethorst 16y ago
        I am in complete agreement with you :)
nandemo 16y ago
What do you mean, he doesn't really code? He has certainly produced open source code in the past. You mean he's not primarily a programmer at the moment?
- alnayyir 16y ago
  The last time he tried to contribute code was more than a little embarrassing. He managed to be on the ground at the right time for the whole free software and hacker culture thing, but as far as actual coding goes, he's nothing special.
  - jrockway 16y ago
    Hey, come on... fetchmail deleted a lot of my mail back when I used POP3 over dialup. Without fetchmail, who would have been motivated enough to write offlineimap!?
  - kiba 16y ago
    Oh you mean Wesnoth, GPSD, and INTERCAL? Well, haters gotcha hate, especially when there is a guru.
  - Symmetry 16y ago
    Why did you feel it neccesary to criticize his coding skills when we are discussing a semi-humorous piece of writing though? Does Reymond's skill or lack thereof these days effect whether the Unix Koans are worthwhile? If there's something wrong or inaccurate in them surely you could point that out rather than proceeding straight to criticizing their source. I'm having trouble understanding your comments here as anything other than defensiveness or elitism.
    - oconnore 16y ago
      Whether or not he is a good programmer or not is sort of irrelevant. I think he exaggerates his position as "spokesperson of hackers everywhere", and it is occasionally annoying (although more often I do enjoy his writing).
    - alnayyir 16y ago
      What connore said, that and hackerne.ws appears to be turning into a rather uncritical bunch of cheerleading, rather than any real sensible evaluation of what's in front of them. This community is starting to feel more like slashdot and TechCrunch collaborated on a sister site than a bastion of valuable conversation.
sp332 16y ago
ESR might not be "hard core" enough for you, but he's been studying hackers for decades. He's an established authority on hackers and hacker culture. I love zen koans, especially hacker koans, This is a validation of his authority.
- alnayyir 16y ago
  Making observations isn't a testament to authority nor skill. Stop acting like he's some kind of sacred lamb and go look at the actual work he's produced other than being a 'personality'. I thought Hackerne.ws would be more circumspect about this.
  - _delirium 16y ago
    But that is work he's produced. I'm not sure whether he's a particularly good sociologist/chronicler of hacker culture or not, but that work should be judged on its own merits. Is it good sociology/history, or is it poorly done/inaccurate/done-better-elsewhere? I don't think looking at the quality of his C code is a particularly useful way of answering that question. I mean, some minimal technical knowledge is probably necessary to do a good job at it, but beyond that I'm not sure if there's good correlation between awesome-coder and great-chronicler.
    - derefr 16y ago
      I think what people are up in arms about, is that ESR calls himself a hacker—and most hackers, being programmers as well, think of hacking as referring to a particular kind of programming. These hackers, thus, form their meritocratic scale of "hackerlyness" around programming ability. However, as ESR himself writes: http://catb.org/jargon/html/meaning-of-hack.html http://catb.org/jargon/html/meaning-of-hack.html > Hacking might be characterized as 'an appropriate application of ingenuity'. Whether the result is a quick-and-dirty patchwork job or a carefully crafted work of art, you have to admire the cleverness that went into it. An important secondary meaning of hack is 'a creative practical joke'. This kind of hack is easier to explain to non-hackers than the programming kind. Of course, some hacks have both natures. If this is how ESR defines "hacking", then his claim to be a hacker is not, also, an implicit claim that he is a good programmer (that one must then refute.) He simply claims to "apply ingenuity" and "joke around"—which, it's pretty clear from the OP link, he does, in the medium of prose.

As much as I love zen koans, especially hacker koans, it's worth remembering that ESR doesn't really code and I don't know if he merits the 'authority' that some people ascribe to him.

aaronbrethorst 16y ago

Those who can, do. Those who can't, dress up in Jedi costumes and shout out malapropisms[1]. [1] http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-revenge.html http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-revenge.html

alnayyir 16y ago
Frankly, I stayed up so late last night/this morning that I had nightmares when I did finally pass out because I was hacking on a compiler. ESR can't sling enough code to contribute to a random OSS project without people getting exasperated, of late. Don't spout platitudes at people you don't know.
- mahmud 16y ago
  I think aaron is in agreement with you :-)
  - alnayyir 16y ago
    I'm terrible at gauging that.
    - aaronbrethorst 16y ago
      I am in complete agreement with you :)

nandemo 16y ago

What do you mean, he doesn't really code? He has certainly produced open source code in the past. You mean he's not primarily a programmer at the moment?

alnayyir 16y ago
The last time he tried to contribute code was more than a little embarrassing. He managed to be on the ground at the right time for the whole free software and hacker culture thing, but as far as actual coding goes, he's nothing special.
- jrockway 16y ago
  Hey, come on... fetchmail deleted a lot of my mail back when I used POP3 over dialup. Without fetchmail, who would have been motivated enough to write offlineimap!?
- kiba 16y ago
  Oh you mean Wesnoth, GPSD, and INTERCAL? Well, haters gotcha hate, especially when there is a guru.
- Symmetry 16y ago
  Why did you feel it neccesary to criticize his coding skills when we are discussing a semi-humorous piece of writing though? Does Reymond's skill or lack thereof these days effect whether the Unix Koans are worthwhile? If there's something wrong or inaccurate in them surely you could point that out rather than proceeding straight to criticizing their source. I'm having trouble understanding your comments here as anything other than defensiveness or elitism.
  - oconnore 16y ago
    Whether or not he is a good programmer or not is sort of irrelevant. I think he exaggerates his position as "spokesperson of hackers everywhere", and it is occasionally annoying (although more often I do enjoy his writing).
  - alnayyir 16y ago
    What connore said, that and hackerne.ws appears to be turning into a rather uncritical bunch of cheerleading, rather than any real sensible evaluation of what's in front of them. This community is starting to feel more like slashdot and TechCrunch collaborated on a sister site than a bastion of valuable conversation.

sp332 16y ago

ESR might not be "hard core" enough for you, but he's been studying hackers for decades. He's an established authority on hackers and hacker culture. I love zen koans, especially hacker koans, This is a validation of his authority.

alnayyir 16y ago
Making observations isn't a testament to authority nor skill. Stop acting like he's some kind of sacred lamb and go look at the actual work he's produced other than being a 'personality'. I thought Hackerne.ws would be more circumspect about this.
- _delirium 16y ago
  But that is work he's produced. I'm not sure whether he's a particularly good sociologist/chronicler of hacker culture or not, but that work should be judged on its own merits. Is it good sociology/history, or is it poorly done/inaccurate/done-better-elsewhere? I don't think looking at the quality of his C code is a particularly useful way of answering that question. I mean, some minimal technical knowledge is probably necessary to do a good job at it, but beyond that I'm not sure if there's good correlation between awesome-coder and great-chronicler.
  - derefr 16y ago
    I think what people are up in arms about, is that ESR calls himself a hacker—and most hackers, being programmers as well, think of hacking as referring to a particular kind of programming. These hackers, thus, form their meritocratic scale of "hackerlyness" around programming ability. However, as ESR himself writes: http://catb.org/jargon/html/meaning-of-hack.html http://catb.org/jargon/html/meaning-of-hack.html > Hacking might be characterized as 'an appropriate application of ingenuity'. Whether the result is a quick-and-dirty patchwork job or a carefully crafted work of art, you have to admire the cleverness that went into it. An important secondary meaning of hack is 'a creative practical joke'. This kind of hack is easier to explain to non-hackers than the programming kind. Of course, some hacks have both natures. If this is how ESR defines "hacking", then his claim to be a hacker is not, also, an implicit claim that he is a good programmer (that one must then refute.) He simply claims to "apply ingenuity" and "joke around"—which, it's pretty clear from the OP link, he does, in the medium of prose.